The confusion that is communism, socialism, and fascism.

**ExNavyAmerican** · 05 Mar 07,, 13:49

This is a response to the, "Does Communism work after all?" thread.

This will offend some people (Marxists, fascists, and socialists), but I'm merely stating cold facts: in reality, socialism, communism, and fascism are.... (Drum roll)... ALL THE SAME THING!!!

They all believe in the redistribution of wealth, they are all one party (sometimes simple socialism isn't), and all believe that capitalism is evil, or close to it. There are some differences, and I'll go over them, but they are all the same at heart.

For starters, socialism is the parent of communism and fascism; socialism believes in limited capitalism, and in a socialized society. Note, not a communal society. France is a socialist country, so is India and China (China is communist in name only). Canada is close to it, and the United State had better watch its tread lest it become socialist. Now people, Europe isn't any better. The European Union makes it much worse actually. Despite these painful (for me included) facts, most western countries are capitalist with some social ingredients: i.e. welfare, universal healthcare, government planning, and social security. Add this, and a few more, and you have a socialist society. These traits I just mentioned are socialism on society's level; there is also economic socialism. Economic socialism is the belief in limited capitalism: that is highly regulated capitalism; it believes is medium (at the largest), and small business, but big business is the property of the state-the state being the "people". I've just described the parent social system, socialism. In a nutshell, they believe, as the name implies, in a socialized system. Socialism in and of itself no longer widely exists; it's evolved to 1) international socialism (slightly different from communism) 2) fascism (socialism with nationalism) 3) Communism (basically international socialism, but with a communal society).

Communism/International socialism-
Communism is, as socialism, the belief in the redistribution of wealth. The difference is that all property, all businesses, all wealth is the property of the state. Communists are more radical than plain socialists in that way. The final differences are political ideologies: the belief in the spread of communism throughout the world, and for world peace under the teachings of Marx. They, as do all other branches of socialism, believe in a classless system, but a true communist society is the only branch that practices the point, though the other systems are classless on paper. International socialism is shifty in that it could be communism, but it may be simple socialism; add the foreign policy element of "world peace", and the spread of socialism throughout the world.

Fascism-
Fascism is a simple socialist society with one addition: ultra nationalism. This ultra nationalism can be compounded with national superiority (i.e. the Chinese nationalist party), or even racial superiority (i.e. the Nazi party). Fascism is technically one class, but don't always put this into practice. They are a caste system in a way with the highest caste being the military, and the politicians. They believe in limited capitalism.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's command of facts, but I need to get this off my chest. Also, there appears to be a lot of confusion as to the subject of "socialism". Finally, before you start contradicting me, all I have said here are facts, and if you want to disagree: fine, but while you're at it, you can claim the Germans won WW2. I may have made some minor mistakes, but it is generally correct.

Finally, if I didn't write this clearly; please ask me to clarify. I have a bad habit of becoming sloppy during long posts.

I welcome, and encourage all thoughts, and comments.

Please excuse any typos.

**gunnut** · 05 Mar 07,, 21:44

Confusion is not a result of Confucism...

**BD1** · 05 Mar 07,, 21:58

to me communism & fascism allways seemed more like religions - Savior (Lenin/Stalin/Hitler/Mao) , rituals (party congresses etc.) , Good Books, etc., etc. But its hardly an scientific view

**execrable** · 06 Mar 07,, 15:46

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I welcome, and encourage all thoughts, and comments.

Strange post - You ask for any thoughts and comments AFTER telling us what you have put down is generally correct and that if we disagree we might as well go further and say Germany won WW2?

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I'm not trying to insult anyone's command of facts, but I need to get this off my chest. Also, there appears to be a lot of confusion as to the subject of "socialism". Finally, before you start contradicting me, all I have said here are facts, and if you want to disagree: fine, but while you're at it, you can claim the Germans won WW2. I may have made some minor mistakes, but it is generally correct.

Militarily Germany and Japan lost WW2, economically they didn't - through financial restructuring and aid packages to rebuild their cities and industry Japan and Germany hold 2nd and 3rd spot on the world industrial & economic performance tables. Some defeat that eh?

(This website is out of date as China has since overtaken the Uk to get 5th place in the World bank tables) Link here

Anyway, back to your post - OK, so you have all the facts and I shouldn't argue as the West won WW2 but this below -

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

France is a socialist country, so is India and China (China is communist in name only). Canada is close to it, and the United State had better watch its tread lest it become socialist. Now people, Europe isn't any better. The European Union makes it much worse actually.

Where do you get your facts that France for example is a "socialised" country?

**ExNavyAmerican** · 07 Mar 07,, 04:00

Strange post - You ask for any thoughts and comments AFTER telling us what you have put down is generally correct and that if we disagree we might as well go further and say Germany won WW2?

You're right; it is stranege. But that was the pointl: I was joking. It seemed funny at the time, but understandably, not everyone would take it as a joke. I thought it would be funny to say you can't argue in an argument.

I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Some of the things I said were facts, but I could have been mistake, and I did say I might be wrong about some of them. Some things that were impressions were when I said (I should have said that they were impressions): "socialism doesn't exist widely", also when I said"international socialism and communism are sepatate, but basically the same thing", and when I said "China is communist in name only". In my opinion, it's more fascist than communist. When I said these things, I was stating impressions, and I was theorizing. When I said, 'Don't contradict"; I was joking. Pay no attention to that part; it was a joke.

Militarily Germany and Japan lost WW2, economically they didn't - through financial restructuring and aid packages to rebuild their cities and industry Japan and Germany hold 2nd and 3rd spot on the world industrial & economic performance tables. Some defeat that eh?

This is totally out of context, but the Axis had a peace imposed upon them, allied armies occupied them, their economies were at the time destroyed, and their militaries nonexistent. They lost, though they have demonstrated great national strength by building themselves up to G-5.

Where do you get your facts that France for example is a "socialised" country?

I should have mentioned that I was theorizing, but It's my opinion that it is fascist because of their nationalism. Nationalism by itself is perfectly fine, but this nationalism is compounded by the fact that there is a general feeling of "anti everyone else" among many people. Add all this with some of their social programs, and their agencies that monitor big business, and their distrust of private business as a whole. It's not officially socialist, but in practice, one of the more socialist of the non-socialist nations. Let's not forget president De Gaulle; France's Hitler.

**ExNavyAmerican** · 07 Mar 07,, 12:15

Confusion is not a result of Confucism...

You're right, but fascism and communism are the results of socialism

**execrable** · 07 Mar 07,, 12:25

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

You're right; it is stranege. But that was the pointl: I was joking. It seemed funny at the time, but understandably, not everyone would take it as a joke. I thought it would be funny to say you can't argue in an argument.

Ah yes, but as humans we rely upon nuance, facial gestures and smiles to show we are joking. All of which are missing on the internet - not knowing you better I put my foot in my mouth and took your post seriously.

Ah well.........

**ExNavyAmerican** · 07 Mar 07,, 12:50

Ah yes, but as humans we rely upon nuance, facial gestures and smiles to show we are joking. All of which are missing on the internet - not knowing you better I put my foot in my mouth and took your post seriously.

I'll be honest, and say that I really can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic. But I'll assume you're serious. I should have put one of the faces to make sure nobody misunderstood. Or I should have used the usual phrase, "Don't confuse me with fact; I've made up my mind". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

**aprilfleur** · 07 Mar 07,, 13:17

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

This is a response to the, "Does Communism work after all?" thread.

This will offend some people (Marxists, fascists, and socialists), but I'm merely stating cold facts: in reality, socialism, communism, and fascism are.... (Drum roll)... ALL THE SAME THING!!!

They all believe in the redistribution of wealth, they are all one party (sometimes simple socialism isn't), and all believe that capitalism is evil, or close to it. There are some differences, and I'll go over them, but they are all the same at heart.

i don't think all of them believe that capitalism is all that is evil...could they possibly be against each other as well? they have different ideologies and structures anyway so they must be targeting different goals...

**crooks** · 07 Mar 07,, 14:21

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I should have mentioned that I was theorizing, but It's my opinion that it is fascist because of their nationalism. Nationalism by itself is perfectly fine, but this nationalism is compounded by the fact that there is a general feeling of "anti everyone else" among many people. Add all this with some of their social programs, and their agencies that monitor big business, and their distrust of private business as a whole. It's not officially socialist, but in practice, one of the more socialist of the non-socialist nations. Let's not forget president De Gaulle; France's Hitler.

Nationalism?

In France

?

Non, the French are not nationalist at all......or at least on the ground level, as I was in Lyon last year and guess what happened......nothing, they LIKE foreign people, and were very courtious.

Also, as an example France is a very poor one for Socialism......the country is Capitalist, with a huge urban myth of socialism coming from abroad.

**ExNavyAmerican** · 07 Mar 07,, 17:05

Nationalism?

In France ?

Non, the French are not nationalist at all......or at least on the ground level, as I was in Lyon last year and guess what happened......nothing, they LIKE foreign people, and were very courtious.

Also, as an example France is a very poor one for Socialism......the country is Capitalist, with a huge urban myth of socialism coming from abroad.

I spent 2 horrid years in France from l98-2000, and it was the most miserable time of my life. Very rude, and very arrogant. After the first 1 1/2 years of toleration, me being a guest and all, I fought back. That's when I learned of their double standard: only they can enforce their will.

i don't think all of them believe that capitalism is all that is evil...could they possibly be against each other as well? they have different ideologies and structures anyway so they must be targeting different goals...

All of them believe in the redistribution of wealth to a certain extent, all of them believe that capitalism is the wrong system though socialism and fascism believe that capitalism can be limited and therefore be merged, and all of them scream the mantra of the "worker" and the "people". You're right in that they do target each other: Fascism and Communism are two opposing systems; one believes in nationalism (fascism), and the other believes in internationalism (communism). It doesn't take a great command of the English language to figure out that those two are opposite positions. As I said, fascism is simple socialism, add nationalism to the equation because Socialism advocates, at the very least, pacifism. Communism is the ugly duckling of the 3. It opposes both because one is the extreme right, and the other is moderate. Socialism, to communists, is a start, but sometimes needs help in reform. Communists can live with socialists (Chinese communists adore Sun Yat Sun, and he was a socialist), but the communists are the extreme. They believe in a communal system where everything is the property of everyone, while socialism and fascism believe that is illogical. The latter two believe that communism is the stray, and for the good of socialism, needs to be put down. Communism believes the same, but gets along with socialists states. Fascist states, however, are their mortal enemy.

Basically, fascism believes in ultra nationalism, socialism believes in pacifism, and communism believes in internationalism, and they all believe in the redistribution of wealth to a certain extent. All different, yet all the same.

**Guardian** · 07 Mar 07,, 17:22

The Humanist Manifesto 2000 talks about the perpetual reality of socialism. Capitalism will inevitably turn into socialism. But Socialism, communism, and fascism all go about their goals the wrong way. Civilization must only become socialist through democratic reform. it must be the choice of the people that changes society. Communism is a government forcing people into equality. Fascism is one person or one administration forcing equality on people.

I disagree that communism and fascism are the same. Fascism is the hording or power by a ruling elite (like the Nazis) that allows for swifter and quicker reform. Communism is the illusion that things have changed, but in essence, the government and its "civil servants" become the ruling elites whose opinions dictate society.

**crooks** · 07 Mar 07,, 17:43

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I spent 2 horrid years in France from l98-2000, and it was the most miserable time of my life. Very rude, and very arrogant. After the first 1 1/2 years of toleration, me being a guest and all, I fought back. That's when I learned of their double standard: only they can enforce their will.

Well I'm sorry then, but the French were never like that to me or the dozen odd people in my party so please understand where I'm coming from.

But that said, never has a French person in my vicinity (I spent 3 months there) been horrible or indeed rude to ANY American (and there was a LOT), so maybe yours was an Isolated incident.

Or can anyone else re-enforce the view that France hates the US.....it's always been the other way around imo....

**ExNavyAmerican** · 08 Mar 07,, 01:02

I disagree that communism and fascism are the same. Fascism is the hording or power by a ruling elite (like the Nazis) that allows for swifter and quicker reform. Communism is the illusion that things have changed, but in essence, the government and its "civil servants" become the ruling elites whose opinions dictate society.

They both believe in the redistriution of wealth, and they both were founded on the same principle: socialism. I agree with you in that both are different, but they were both the same in principle.

Well I'm sorry then, but the French were never like that to me or the dozen odd people in my party so please understand where I'm coming from. But that said, never has a French person in my vicinity (I spent 3 months there) been horrible or indeed rude to ANY American (and there was a LOT), so maybe yours was an Isolated incident.

Or can anyone else re-enforce the view that France hates the US.....it's always been the other way around imo....

I understand. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I doubt it was an isolated incident: it happened constantly in 3 areas of the country. (I moved twice after going there)

From an American perspective: they're ungrateful frogs (the Brits on the forum will know where I'm coming from with that one), they're lack of support, and their national posture.

**T_igger_cs_30** · 08 Mar 07,, 01:13

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

From an American perspective: they're ungrateful frogs (the Brits on the forum will know where I'm coming from with that one), they're lack of support, and their national posture.

yes but based on your views and opinions........... we deserve it.................. you dont