Thread: What makes a Muslim radical?

Originally Posted by bonehead

So are you saying it is morally good to sit back and say nothing while your religious brothers are murdering and raping? Silence only encourages evil to grow and prosper. Those silent muslims MUST deside what side of the fence they are on. Doing nothing is not an option.

You might want to study what you are trying to speak of; you might learn something.

Who is this Dr owens and why should he know anything?

He knows something for it is his job is to look at the freezer full of bodies, certify that they are Americans and have been killed by other Americans, not Pan Islamic terrorists.

Dale never said the USA was a utopia, We do have our own problems, but more importantly we do not want, or need the islamic problem thrust upon us.

If you cannot stop American criminals, what makes you think you can make the World safe from Islamic criminals? If you cannot project force on Main Street, what makes you think you can do it half way around the World on the Arab street?

Besides, if you do not want the Islamic problem to come upon you, you need to start knocking women up and taking more wives.

How do you expect to reduce population replacement by immigration in Western countries where low and negative replacement rates are fairly the norm?

Your only hope to combat your enemy is to spread your genetic material around because the intellectual material you offer appears to not be up to the task.

Look on the bright side: at least this strategy is more fun that patrolling the highway to the Baghdad airport.

If the people of the islamic faith do not like the way the west is run they are more than welcome to stay over there.

You do not like the way the East is run and you are more than welcome to stay over here but no, you have to go over there and make matters worse.

You support bombing Iraq ass over tea kettle and then when anarchy sets in you paternalistically say that it is time for them to take responsibility for their own security.

The enemy tells the uncommitted, the fence sitting and the silent that the West is out to get them and you very conveniently oblige him by supplying the facts that make his case.

Looks to me that you are part of the problem, not the solution.

I see no shortage of islamic critisism of the west so to say we should'nt critisize them is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Perhaps some of their criticism of the West is valid. Have you ever considered that?

Are they lying when they complain the West thwarts democratic development in their regions?

Are they being dishonest when they say we support torturing dictators?

You can criticize "them" all you want but to not criticize "us" to a rational degree is to miss the dynamics of the whole enchilada.

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Hey now don't confuse it, there was a guy who wanted to be on his high horse and mocked that only Muslims go about doing so and so. You too chuckled and agreed.

Muslims are more likely by far to be the ones sawing heads, trying to light the fuse on their shoe bombs, rolling grenades into their commander's tent, and buying hand grenades and guns to use in the local mall.

By far.

I never denied that work needs to be done on the Muslims. But at the same time I want to put things into perspective. People are severely dehumanizing a whole group of people that follow a particular faith. A belief system that mainly focusses on stating the singular nature of God not the Kafir, Momin issue.

Really? I see it as a belief system that mainly focuses on producing people who blow up pizzarias full of teenagers and react to criticism by burning embassies down.

You are so focussed onto imams and you are prepared to throw out the window all the other normal people amongst Muslims who condemned 9/11, who sympathized with Americans, who offered their condolonces and numerous other statements of grief and those who offered their support.

It becomes hard to trust you and join in a fight against your enemies while you call yourself my enemy.

I don't know that you're my enemy, but I also don't know that you're my friend. You're too defensive and evasive. Was the U.S. soldier in Iraq who rolled those grenades into the tent and shot the people running out poor? Oppressed? Were the 9/11 murderers poor? Oppressed? Is Amedinijad of Iran poor? Oppressed? The shoe bomber guy? The Madrid bombers? The London bombers? Were the people that trained and indoctrinated these people poor? Oppressed?

Stop playing the vicitm and maybe I'll trust you and yours.

-dale

Originally Posted by Swift Sword

Neither, just sticking to the facts.

There is no need to cut off your head if you have already lost it.

Fear, hatred, ignorance and loathing of Islam is the greatest service you are providing the enemy in his efforts to acheive victory. You are not helping anybody by feeding the monster.

And I can state that you are not helping anybody who deserves help by ignoring the common characteristic of all of these events and people.

A Muslim who would call the bad guys out would not be a Muslim.

If this is true then I have no use for Muslims.

Being moral people, the silent, non bomb throwing Muslims are bound by their morals and ethics not to engage in dividing the Umma or accusations of Apostasy.

Americans are throwing their values down the toilet but the pious Muslim is not capable of doing so because that is what God has willed.

But what you describe above are not American values. An American value is standing up against common foes, not letting them entrench within. Why should I waste a second's concern on someone who will, while living on American soil, not embrace American values while expecting me to embrace his own?

What you see as a sign of moral degradation is actually peaceful, pious non bomb throwing Muslims upholding their beliefs.

William

Then the problem is even bigger than I'd thought, and my distrust is even more justified.

-dale

Originally Posted by dalem

And I can state that you are not helping anybody who deserves help by ignoring the common characteristic of all of these events and people.

I do not support the terrorists so I am not required to spread the ignorance they are depending on to acheive victory.

I have no more reason to lump all Muslims into a giant Islamic conspiracy than I do to lump all of the Jews into a giant, Zionist conspiracy.

On the contrary, I am in the "know your enemy so you can knock the snot out of him" camp.

I have heard it said that "darkness is best dispatched by a lamp".

Take a cue from Thomas Edison: do not just stand there and ***** about the dark, do something about it.

If this is true then I have no use for Muslims.

You might find that you will get further in life by not considering people being there just for the convenience of your own use or disuse.

This sort of mental processing tends to lead to problems.

People trying to use Muslims for their own purposes in Afghanistan seems to be a part of the problem we currently face.

People trying to use Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia did not lead to the desired results.

Alot of study has been devoted to the relationship between tools, there uses and there users over the years and it would appear that it might be readily extendable to the field of geopolitics.

But what you describe above are not American values. An American value is standing up against common foes, not letting them entrench within.

IIRC, innocent until proven guilty and cultural plurality have traditionally been American values but appear to have fallen by the way side.

If we clung to our own values as tightly as many Muslims cling to theirs, we would not have half of the problems we are facing I'd be willing to wager.

Why should I waste a second's concern on someone who will, while living on American soil, not embrace American values while expecting me to embrace his own?

What about Muslims who do embrace American values and don't bother anybody?

Should we give them the benefit of the doubt or is their Islamicism merely enough for you to condemn them if you lack any evidence of crime or criminal conspiracy?

Then the problem is even bigger than I'd thought, and my distrust is even more justified.

-dale

Your distrust and suspicion is a product of your own psychopathology and has nothing to do with Islam.

The best way to fall prey to the Pan Islamic threat is to focus too closely on their radicalization and thus blindly stumble into your own.

Friendly disagreement regards,

William

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

That's ridiculous, Zraver. Yes a Muslim is more likely to commit acts of violence because of the country he or she lives in. America IS a 1st World nation. The top banana of 1st world nations.

Why hasn't there been any acts of violence in UAE? ZERO. No one even got slapped after the cartoons incident. People wrote in the papers, editors wrote, people wrote on UAE forums, but no violence. Heck we've never had a terrorist incident, EVER!

The more third world a country is, the more like the law n order situation would get out of hand.

Then why were so many of the hijacker suniversity educated, OBL him self was among the richest in the world. The UAE is but a small island of tranquility in the midst of an Islamic world gone mad. Nor does being top banna inoculate you from crime. 7/7, Rhichard Reid those caught in side America's own bordes form among its own citizens etc. All form the higher social strata of th world. Plus Ameirca has crime issues like every one else. What we don't have is a ratio of religious nutjobs out killing people like the Islamic world does.

Originally Posted by Swift Sword

I do not support the terrorists so I am not required to spread the ignorance they are depending on to acheive victory.

I have no more reason to lump all Muslims into a giant Islamic conspiracy than I do to lump all of the Jews into a giant, Zionist conspiracy.

You miss my point. I have made an intellectual decision to hold the group responsible for the actions of those acting in their name. I don't see a conspiracy - I see a collective lack of will to act and I choose to not coddle that.

On the contrary, I am in the "know your enemy so you can knock the snot out of him" camp.

I have heard it said that "darkness is best dispatched by a lamp".

Take a cue from Thomas Edison: do not just stand there and ***** about the dark, do something about it.

My decision is NOT based on ignorance, I assure you. I am lighting my own candle in the dark; just because it's a different color than yours doesn't mean it's not providing illumination.

You might find that you will get further in life by not considering people being there just for the convenience of your own use or disuse.

This sort of mental processing tends to lead to problems.

It's a simple aphorism. If your interpretation of what a "true Muslim" is is correct, then I don't want any as part of my community. Somehow I feel I'm misunderstanding your statement though. Do you hold that if Johhny Mohammed sees Andy Abu about to saw my neighbor's head off, pleads with Andy to not do it and sees that Johnny does it anyway, that when Officer Angus McTavish questions Johhny about the murder, Johnny can't be truthful about what he witnessed because Andy and he are both Muslims?

Because if THAT'S true then the only solution is to outlaw Islam and deport any practitioners. We can't have enclavic communities and survive.

People trying to use Muslims for their own purposes in Afghanistan seems to be a part of the problem we currently face.

People trying to use Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia did not lead to the desired results.

Alot of study has been devoted to the relationship between tools, there uses and there users over the years and it would appear that it might be readily extendable to the field of geopolitics.

I agree that our "strongman of the week" policy of keeping the Middle East stable during the Cold War is coming home to roost.

IIRC, innocent until proven guilty and cultural plurality have traditionally been American values but appear to have fallen by the way side.

1) Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept.
2) Cultural plurality was never an American value - assimilation, tolerance, and the melting pot were what built this country and strengthened it. Multiculturalism, i.e. the belief that maintaining and focusing on some sort of extra-national identity is a good thing, is a relatively recent but incredibly potent poison come to American shores.

I don't care if a person is a Muslim, Rosicrucian, or Scientologist as long as they acknowledge national laws and traditions.

If we clung to our own values as tightly as many Muslims cling to theirs, we would not have half of the problems we are facing I'd be willing to wager.

First you have to understand your values.

What about Muslims who do embrace American values and don't bother anybody?

Should we give them the benefit of the doubt or is their Islamicism merely enough for you to condemn them if you lack any evidence of crime or criminal conspiracy?

Hm. Right now I'm leaning toward the latter. Again, because I've seen precious little evidence that the average devout Muslim doesn't at least tacitly support the Bad Guys.

Your distrust and suspicion is a product of your own psychopathology and has nothing to do with Islam.

Hah. Yeah, I've been given NO reason to distrust those who follow Islam. They've shown themselves to be all-around peachy folk.

The best way to fall prey to the Pan Islamic threat is to focus too closely on their radicalization and thus blindly stumble into your own.

Or to have an American or Israeli passprt, eh?

-dale

LOVED the last line. Nice riposte.

There is 3 things that cause radical muslims:
1 Poverty (main reason) 2 Mental problems 3 An accident on the persons family and friends which was committed by a non muslim.

Radical Islam has made inroads into former Soviet Central Asia because of the economy, lack of political freedom, regional tensions and of course Saudi/UAE/Pakistani money/ideas which gain traction because of the above. Regions which were never terribly devout have sprung up Wahhabis because of a mix of those reasons and selectively telling history. It is not simply that they can't sit still in class.

Why hasn't there been any acts of violence in UAE?

Dubai; raising and laundering Islamic terrorism's money since 1992.

Could be a nice tourism ad.

So Asim are you about to suggest some kind of viable solution at some point or....?