The Happy Part of America

**Leader** · 23 Jun 04,, 22:51

Originally Posted by Trooth

Leader, Confed, nice job. He isa troll and you have handled him well!

Thank you.

**Leader** · 23 Jun 04,, 22:55

Originally Posted by Trooth

I know i am nitpicking here, but most of the people in Afghanistan were not under Taliban control. A lot of the people in afghanistan wouldn't know where Kabul was, let alone the US.

The same people that controlled the people in the valley's still do. The power in Kabul is weak and insecure at the moment. The clans hold sway still and will do. Afghanistan is probably two centuries behind the western world.

Either way they at least have a chance for freedom. If they want it.

**Trooth** · 23 Jun 04,, 23:21

Originally Posted by Leader

Either way they at least have a chance for freedom. If they want it.

I am not sure they know if they want it or not. Its a feudal world out there.
I suspect they largely have the same chance they had before, sadly. The only hope they have is that the likes of Karhzai can bring together some of the clans. The evidence isn't great at the moment.

**Confed999** · 24 Jun 04,, 00:21

Originally Posted by Trooth

The only hope they have

Better than no hope at all. The point was that from these wars, that I can't see any way around, there is a chance. If the people see it, and take advantage of it, the world will help them succeed. Nobody can force them to do anything, all we can do is stop as many of the bad guys as possible.

**Confed999** · 24 Jun 04,, 00:23

Originally Posted by Trooth

I know i am nitpicking here.

You're allowed to nitpick, but those people were under the threat of much worse than control. They were allready at war with the Taliban, and minor infractions of the law would leave you hanging in their International Soccer Stadium, what was the penalty for rebellion?

**Trooth** · 25 Jun 04,, 23:12

The chance only exists if the people know about it. The people in the mountains are ruled over by the same militias they were before, during and after the Taliban.

**Confed999** · 26 Jun 04,, 00:03

We can only do our best, and I'm sure they know the Taliban have fallen. I personally don't care what government(s) they choose, as long as they are benign, and we don't have to go through this again.

**Jay** · 26 Jun 04,, 00:22

Originally Posted by Trooth

I know i am nitpicking here, but most of the people in Afghanistan were not under Taliban control. A lot of the people in afghanistan wouldn't know where Kabul was, let alone the US.

The same people that controlled the people in the valley's still do. The power in Kabul is weak and insecure at the moment. The clans hold sway still and will do. Afghanistan is probably two centuries behind the western world.

Dont think so. Most of them clan leaders were under Taliban's control. Only a selected group of military commanders were against them (NA) like Dostum etc.

Taliban at one point had 3/4 th of Afghanistan under their control and definetely most of the Afghanis now know America

thanks to the carpet bombing, JDAMS and Tomahawks

**Trooth** · 26 Jun 04,, 01:03

Originally Posted by Confed999

We can only do our best, and I'm sure they know the Taliban have fallen. I personally don't care what government(s) they choose, as long as they are benign, and we don't have to go through this again.

I totally agree. But sadly i don't think the people will choose anything as such. I am not sure they will even know ther eis a choice to be made. Kahzai's problem it that Kabul is a capital city in name, he has a government in name. But there isn't a political or governmental infrastructure there to support it and him.

The theory of control and or freedom falls when the government cannot exert influence, which it can't do without an infrastructre.

Literacy is about 30%. There are next to no railways, not much in the way of road, not much in the way of newspapers, radio etc.

**Confed999** · 26 Jun 04,, 16:08

Originally Posted by Trooth

The theory of control and or freedom falls when the government cannot exert influence, which it can't do without an infrastructre.

The tribes would be local government. The key is getting them to acknowledge a central government, to keep them all in check, and create the first world infastructure. Let's not make this more complicated than it really is, Afghanistan's future truly comes down to just a few people, and wether they decide to cooperate with each other, or not.

**Ray** · 26 Jun 04,, 16:43

The tribes are a free wheeling lot. They do not accept any rules or restriction (historically it is so) except their own tribal diktats. Therefore, governance and govt from beyond the realm of the diktat of their 'tribal leader', is an alien philosophy.

The tribe's wants are minimal and in fact frugal. Therefore, modern gizmos have no great demand except as it would interest a child - shortlived.

In short, the philosophy is eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die. It is difficult to impose any restrictions like govts on these folks. The Afghans we outside of Afghanistan are not relly representative of the Afghani mindset. They have been educated and have seen life and have been 'bitten' by the bug of modern amenities and modern philosophies.

Maybe education would help the Afghani tribals to see beyond their feudal existence.

They are very insular like the Mormons of yesteryears.