True image of Islam - Page 4

sparten · 01-05-2006, 00:04 AM

Err... Sam, two thirds of them are drug addicts.

Ray · 01-05-2006, 03:22 AM

Neo, Sparten and Sam,

Honestly, I tried to understand Islam with all sincerity because I thought that a fair deal was not being given to them.

I am emerged totally at sea.

It is a very sad experience especially when you find fine Moslems and yet on the other hand you find ridiculous clerics and bloody minded bigots. I am sure such bigots are on both sides of the fence, but then why you are seeking some answer, these bigots totally put you off on a tangent!

My own Moslem relations too were a total failure to explain issues. In Malaysia, it was worse. They wouldn't let me enter the Mosque because I told them the truth that I was a non Moslem! I have not tried to go to a Mosque in India because they are more bigoted.

I liked Sania Mirza's answer to a Moslem reporter - "Why are you so keen about my views on religion and so little about that you are here for - my tennis!"

How can one expect understanding of others if you don't let people from other religions to experience your religion?!

Ray · 01-05-2006, 03:29 AM

Sparten,

Three quarters of my adult life has been in Kashmir.

They follow Sufism.

I am a very secular man and I used to visit the Mazars and have interacted with many educated religious people.

Say what you want, but Sufism is indeed a great experience and, if you don't mind. without drugs!

I think your remark is unfair, bigoted and possibly born out of no practical experience but what you have been taught to believe!

I say that without meaning any offence.

Hari_Om · 01-05-2006, 09:00 AM

Ray,

Rather than Sufi’s I think a better model would be the Muslim sect that follows the Aga Khan ie : Ismaili’s aka Nizari’s aka Sevener’s aka Aga Khani’s.

I have had occasion to interact with a number of them and they have struck me as a group well adapted to live in multi-religious societies in contemporary times.

I have as yet never come across a single instance of this Muslim sect’s member being involved in terrorism. None of this sect’s members were involved in Mumbai 1993 blasts, 9/11, London or Madrid bombings.

On the business front they are savvy entrepreneurs.... make that real savvy. IIRC Azim Premji, Forbes magazine certified dollar billionaire and India’s richest individual, is a member of this Muslim sect.

On the education front they are doing a fine job, albeit not in India but in Pakistan where they are perhaps at the cutting edge of educational reform

The Imam of the sect, HH Karim Aga Khan has certainly got things right. Perhaps here lies the way forward.

Samudra · 01-05-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

Err... Sam, two thirds of them are drug addicts.

Sufis cant help it if a good number of drug addicts want to call themselves Sufis!

I have found a lot of similarities between the Vedic thoughts and the poems of the Sufis.

While the Gita stresses on renouncing the world through detachment and giving up worldly desires in Karma Yoga; Rumi, the Sufi, writes thus "Desire for the world has deprived man of the Object of his desire".

Some ideas of Advaita are strikingly similar to these lines of Rumi :

"Earth, air, water and fire: do you know what they are?
Earth, air, water and fire-and the soul as well; it is I

Truth and falsehood, good and evil, pleasure and suffering, beginning and end,
Knowledge, learning, asceticism, devotion and faith-it is I."

To continue in the path of "no religion equals Islam" will lead the world to conflict.

You may ask if other religion concede that there are equals but Islam is the newest religion and therefore has a lot of energy.It will exhaust all its energy and one day become like what every other religion is today.

I know many a Moslems who concede that truth lies hidden in all religions.

I remember a Moslem classmate of mine who said that all religions are the same and that God is not what he/she is portrayed as in all religions.This happened in our fifth grade.

I also know a chap who hails from the Bohra sect.
Never really had the chance to discuss religion with him.

sparten · 01-05-2006, 11:05 AM

Sir,
I have never been to IHK so I cannot comment.
But over here the situation is different! While many Sufis truely want a union with God, drug use is rampant with them. Apparently the drug helps them get a high while meditating. Unfortunatly many of them end up as addicts. My aunt is a pathologist, and she told me that almost everyday she gets a new case, : sufi; cause of death: cirrhosis of the liver or heart attack caused by intake of drugs or worse drugs mixed with alcohol. So its a sad situation.

But than again Sufis have been responsible for some of the best poetry in human history. But (and I say this with all sincerity) there are few Baba Bulley Shah's. Or Rumis.

Sufis have a pretty good reputation in Pakistan, sufi shrine are a sanctuary to all, (including unfortunatly some criminals) and well good music is good music. But drugs will be the death knell of them.

As for the understand Islam part, well I'll admit that we don't exactly make ourselves easy to understand with the "ummah" bit, but well Islam is not a monolithic community. Go to Malaysia, and I may well be as confounded by some practices that they have as you were. Come to Islamabad (preferably not part of an invading army!) or Lahore and you can visit Faisal Mosque, or Badshahi Mosque. Don't tell me that Jamia Masjid is off limits to you.

sparten · 01-05-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

I know many a Moslems who concede that truth lies hidden in all religions.

Islam never (at least originally) claimed to be a new religion. Islam only claimed to be the culmination of Gods revelation. The Quran make that clear.

leib10 · 01-05-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Actually, the more I see of Islam on the net, the more confusing it becomes.

The comprehension becomes worse because the various sects/ groups or whatever you wish to call them i.e. Sunni, Shia, Wahabis, Sufis, Islamiyas, Ahmediyyas, Bohras, Iranis etc etc give their own interpretation and each one does with vehement protestations that they alone are the true saviours of Islam!

As you start believing the last chap, up comes another, like a jack in the box, and throws a new one for interpretation and that too with sound logic!

My thoughts exactly. It's a terribly confusing religion to me.

Ray · 01-05-2006, 15:31 PM

Hari Om,

I have interacted with the Aga Kahnis in Mumbai. I had many school friends there. Good chaps and quite liberal, though I disliked the smell of their onion pickle which was very strong and sour like in smell.

I have interacted with Sufis in great detail including some terrorists! Yes, terrorists! Excellent chaps as individuals and best part they don't have the aggressiveness that you find in Islam, especially Islam as practiced in India.

Sparten,

The Sufi music is a rage wherever it is heard!

Drugs is not confined to any community, sect, class or religion!

Gabru47 · 01-05-2006, 17:36 PM

Quote:

Also, can you explain to me about the concepts of internal and external jihad?

To the muslims on this board, isn't it true that this inner jihad, or whats called bigger jihad, was created by sufis and that all(not sure) other sects reject this?

Also, in what order were the verses in the koran revealed? I've read that they weren't recorded in the order of revelation.

sparten · 01-06-2006, 04:25 AM

Gabru47,
The bigger Jihad/smaller Jihad is not a Quranic verse, but what the Prophet said.

Quote:

Also, in what order were the verses in the koran revealed? I've read that they weren't recorded in the order of revelation.

They were compiled into a book after the Prophet's death (some 10 years). It was not exactly a popular undertaking and actually led to conflict and eventually; war.

Anon · 01-17-2006, 21:21 PM

Islam as it is currently configured(or conflicted) IS a threat to the west, and a grave one.

Insomniac was right about that much.

**Lunatock** · 01-18-2006, 16:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Islam as it is currently configured(or conflicted) IS a threat to the west, and a grave one.

Insomniac was right about that much.

But how right is he about saying it's all bad, and among other things..pointing a gun in my face? Figuratively speaking on that last part though.

01-05-2006, 00:04 AM	#46 (permalink)
sparten Actus Reus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 04-10-04 Location: You would like to know would'nt you? Posts: 1,695 Country:	Err... Sam, two thirds of them are drug addicts. __________________ "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

01-05-2006, 03:22 AM	#47 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,380 Country:	Neo, Sparten and Sam, Honestly, I tried to understand Islam with all sincerity because I thought that a fair deal was not being given to them. I am emerged totally at sea. It is a very sad experience especially when you find fine Moslems and yet on the other hand you find ridiculous clerics and bloody minded bigots. I am sure such bigots are on both sides of the fence, but then why you are seeking some answer, these bigots totally put you off on a tangent! My own Moslem relations too were a total failure to explain issues. In Malaysia, it was worse. They wouldn't let me enter the Mosque because I told them the truth that I was a non Moslem! I have not tried to go to a Mosque in India because they are more bigoted. I liked Sania Mirza's answer to a Moslem reporter - "Why are you so keen about my views on religion and so little about that you are here for - my tennis!" How can one expect understanding of others if you don't let people from other religions to experience your religion?! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
You mock our prophet, we burn your embassy...	KPR	Current Affairs	367	03-30-2006 11:33 AM
"Juggling Figures, Ignoring Facts"	Ray	Political Discussions	11	08-25-2005 02:28 AM
True Islam or Islamic formalism?	Ray	Political Discussions	0	08-22-2005 12:47 PM
Islam: Religion or political ideology?	Major_Armstrong	Political Discussions	12	09-16-2004 09:05 AM

01-05-2006, 03:29 AM	#48 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,380 Country:	Sparten, Three quarters of my adult life has been in Kashmir. They follow Sufism. I am a very secular man and I used to visit the Mazars and have interacted with many educated religious people. Say what you want, but Sufism is indeed a great experience and, if you don't mind. without drugs! I think your remark is unfair, bigoted and possibly born out of no practical experience but what you have been taught to believe! I say that without meaning any offence.

01-05-2006, 09:00 AM	#49 (permalink)
Hari_Om Banished Join Date: 09-30-04 Posts: 1,049 Country:	Ray, Rather than Sufi’s I think a better model would be the Muslim sect that follows the Aga Khan ie : Ismaili’s aka Nizari’s aka Sevener’s aka Aga Khani’s. I have had occasion to interact with a number of them and they have struck me as a group well adapted to live in multi-religious societies in contemporary times. I have as yet never come across a single instance of this Muslim sect’s member being involved in terrorism. None of this sect’s members were involved in Mumbai 1993 blasts, 9/11, London or Madrid bombings. On the business front they are savvy entrepreneurs.... make that real savvy. IIRC Azim Premji, Forbes magazine certified dollar billionaire and India’s richest individual, is a member of this Muslim sect. On the education front they are doing a fine job, albeit not in India but in Pakistan where they are perhaps at the cutting edge of educational reform The Imam of the sect, HH Karim Aga Khan has certainly got things right. Perhaps here lies the way forward.

01-05-2006, 11:05 AM	#51 (permalink)
sparten Actus Reus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 04-10-04 Location: You would like to know would'nt you? Posts: 1,695 Country:	Sir, I have never been to IHK so I cannot comment. But over here the situation is different! While many Sufis truely want a union with God, drug use is rampant with them. Apparently the drug helps them get a high while meditating. Unfortunatly many of them end up as addicts. My aunt is a pathologist, and she told me that almost everyday she gets a new case, : sufi; cause of death: cirrhosis of the liver or heart attack caused by intake of drugs or worse drugs mixed with alcohol. So its a sad situation. But than again Sufis have been responsible for some of the best poetry in human history. But (and I say this with all sincerity) there are few Baba Bulley Shah's. Or Rumis. Sufis have a pretty good reputation in Pakistan, sufi shrine are a sanctuary to all, (including unfortunatly some criminals) and well good music is good music. But drugs will be the death knell of them. As for the understand Islam part, well I'll admit that we don't exactly make ourselves easy to understand with the "ummah" bit, but well Islam is not a monolithic community. Go to Malaysia, and I may well be as confounded by some practices that they have as you were. Come to Islamabad (preferably not part of an invading army!) or Lahore and you can visit Faisal Mosque, or Badshahi Mosque. Don't tell me that Jamia Masjid is off limits to you.

01-05-2006, 15:31 PM	#54 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,380 Country:	Hari Om, I have interacted with the Aga Kahnis in Mumbai. I had many school friends there. Good chaps and quite liberal, though I disliked the smell of their onion pickle which was very strong and sour like in smell. I have interacted with Sufis in great detail including some terrorists! Yes, terrorists! Excellent chaps as individuals and best part they don't have the aggressiveness that you find in Islam, especially Islam as practiced in India. Sparten, The Sufi music is a rage wherever it is heard! Drugs is not confined to any community, sect, class or religion!

01-17-2006, 21:21 PM	#57 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Islam as it is currently configured(or conflicted) IS a threat to the west, and a grave one. Insomniac was right about that much.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)