True image of Islam - Page 3

Samudra · 01-02-2006, 13:17 PM

meh!
I deleted it!

Anyway, that was supposed to be about what people are doing with Hinduism!
If the writers of the Upanishads were alive today, they would probally find a Gun and shoot themselves dead.

sparten · 01-02-2006, 14:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

If the writers of the Upanishads were alive today, they would probally find a Gun and shoot themselves dead.

The founders of most of the worlds religions would be shocked to see what happened in their name.

And Sam I never said that my knowledge of Hinduism was perfect or even that it was much.

I doubt you know much about Islam, except what you have read in the media. And I say that without prejudice to you.

My decision to be a muslim is of course a personal one. But if you must know, I spent most of my teen years learning as much as I could about Islam and yes other religions.

sparten · 01-02-2006, 14:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

The founders of most of the worlds religions would be shocked to see what happened in their name.

And Sam I never said that my knowledge of Hinduism was perfect or even that it was much.

I doubt you know much about Islam, except what you have read in the media. And I say that without prejudice to you.

My decision to be a muslim is of course a personal one. But if you must know, I spent most of my teen years learning as much as I could about Islam and yes other religions.

\
The verse that struck me the most

There is no compulsion in religion.

2:256

Bulgaroctonus · 01-02-2006, 14:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

Hmmm lets look at the historical wars the prophet fought.

Sparten,

I have omitted the rest of your post. However, it seems that you are trying to justify Muhammad's tolerance of violence in the name of self-defense. It is true that the earliest armies of Islam fought for defense. However, the nature of the violence is not important, the fact is that Muhammad did tolerate violence. This is different from the various pacifist leaders of history, such as the Buddha or Gandhi, who unconditionally condemned violence.

I am a realistic man, so I do not blame Muhammad for tolerating violence. It was essential to early Muslims that they defend themselves with force. In fact, Muhammad's acceptance of violence made the military actions of the Caliphate appear less hypocritical than Christian military action, since Christ was probably pacifistic.

I do not know how much Muhammad's military actions justify modern Muslim violence. I suppose that is what we are discussing.

sparten · 01-03-2006, 03:03 AM

Well I dispute the fact that Christ was Pacifist, mainly since his ministry never got to the stage Muhammads did, i.e ceased to be a purely religious one.

Historically, the Prophet hated viloence. He refused to allow any fighting for the longest time, even despite the advice of all around him. Took a revelation from God, literally to convince him otherwise.

raj · 01-03-2006, 03:21 AM

as bernard shaw put it
" ISLAM is a great religion ,which has the worst followers"

**Shek** · 01-03-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

Well I dispute the fact that Christ was Pacifist, mainly since his ministry never got to the stage Muhammads did, i.e ceased to be a purely religious one.

Sparten,
Can you elaborate?

Samudra · 01-03-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

And Sam I never said that my knowledge of Hinduism was perfect or even that it was much.

So, you are not qualified enough to say one is better than the other.

Quote:

I doubt you know much about Islam, except what you have read in the media. And I say that without prejudice to you.

I know how the media works.So I dont contest somebodys opinions or beliefs based on what I read in the media - instead I ask them directly.

Quote:

My decision to be a muslim is of course a personal one. But if you must know, I spent most of my teen years learning as much as I could about Islam and yes other religions.

The words "as much as I could" are very important.

It indicates that your knowledge is incomplete - therefore you are not qualified to say one religion is better than the other.

So, you being a Muslim is not because you studied all religions and found Islam to be the best.It is more about being born in a Muslim family and the upbringing.

Samudra · 01-03-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

\
The verse that struck me the most

There is no compulsion in religion.

2:256

I'm more intrested in the mindset of 'religious people' rather than to find a verse and then bash/praise the religion or its followers.

Its pointless because a smart man can justify anything if he wanted to.

sparten · 01-03-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shek

Sparten,
Can you elaborate?

Sir, what I meant was that Jesus Christ's (S) ministry never got to the point Muhammad's (S) got to, that he (Muhammad) ceased to be a purely religious leader and became a leader with both a political and religious aspect. While it is only the religious aspect that is important to us today, at the time the political aspect was pretty influential in essence.

Neo · 01-03-2006, 17:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

Insomniac, from your profile, I can see that you are barely 16, which of course excuses your ignorance.

Quoting things completely out of context is no way to show that a piece of work is "evil" or "violent". I could take Mein Kempf and well by taking selected parts completely out of context "prove" that old Adolph was not anti-semetic or that he actually was a Jew. So quoting verses completely out of context, does not prove anything one way or another.

I was just about to post the same, but you did it already!
Thanks!

Hari_Om · 01-04-2006, 12:31 PM

An article that appeared in Wall Street Journal by Abdurrahman Wahid, former President of Indonesia and going by the Ramon Magsaysay Award citation “a Muslim scholar in his own right” which I guess makes him qualified to say what is “Right islam”. Apparently studied at Al Azhar and Baghdad University’s Department of Religious Studies.

Quote:

Right Islam vs. Wrong Islam
Muslims and non-Muslims must unite to defeat the Wahhabi ideology.

BY ABDURRAHMAN WAHID
Friday, December 30, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

JAKARTA--News organizations report that Osama bin Laden has obtained a religious edict from a misguided Saudi cleric, justifying the use of nuclear weapons against America and the infliction of mass casualties. It requires great emotional strength to confront the potential ramifications of this fact. Yet can anyone doubt that those who joyfully incinerate the occupants of office buildings, commuter trains, hotels and nightclubs would leap at the chance to magnify their damage a thousandfold?

Imagine the impact of a single nuclear bomb detonated in New York, London, Paris, Sydney or L.A.! What about two or three? The entire edifice of modern civilization is built on economic and technological foundations that terrorists hope to collapse with nuclear attacks like so many fishing huts in the wake of a tsunami.

Just two small, well-placed bombs devastated Bali's tourist economy in 2002 and sent much of its population back to the rice fields and out to sea, to fill their empty bellies. What would be the effect of a global economic crisis in the wake of attacks far more devastating than those of Bali or 9/11?

It is time for people of good will from every faith and nation to recognize that a terrible danger threatens humanity. We cannot afford to continue "business as usual" in the face of this existential threat. Rather, we must set aside our international and partisan bickering, and join to confront the danger that lies before us.

An extreme and perverse ideology in the minds of fanatics is what directly threatens us (specifically, Wahhabi/Salafi ideology--a minority fundamentalist religious cult fueled by petrodollars). Yet underlying, enabling and exacerbating this threat of religious extremism is a global crisis of misunderstanding.

All too many Muslims fail to grasp Islam, which teaches one to be lenient towards others and to understand their value systems, knowing that these are tolerated by Islam as a religion. The essence of Islam is encapsulated in the words of the Quran, "For you, your religion; for me, my religion." That is the essence of tolerance. Religious fanatics--either purposely or out of ignorance--pervert Islam into a dogma of intolerance, hatred and bloodshed. They justify their brutality with slogans such as "Islam is above everything else." They seek to intimidate and subdue anyone who does not share their extremist views, regardless of nationality or religion. While a few are quick to shed blood themselves, countless millions of others sympathize with their violent actions, or join in the complicity of silence.

This crisis of misunderstanding--of Islam by Muslims themselves--is compounded by the failure of governments, people of other faiths, and the majority of well-intentioned Muslims to resist, isolate and discredit this dangerous ideology. The crisis thus afflicts Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with tragic consequences. Failure to understand the true nature of Islam permits the continued radicalization of Muslims world-wide, while blinding the rest of humanity to a solution which hides in plain sight.

The most effective way to overcome Islamist extremism is to explain what Islam truly is to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Without that explanation, people will tend to accept the unrefuted extremist view--further radicalizing Muslims, and turning the rest of the world against Islam itself.

Accomplishing this task will be neither quick nor easy. In recent decades, Wahhabi/Salafi ideology has made substantial inroads throughout the Muslim world. Islamic fundamentalism has become a well-financed, multifaceted global movement that operates like a juggernaut in much of the developing world, and even among immigrant Muslim communities in the West. To neutralize the virulent ideology that underlies fundamentalist terrorism and threatens the very foundations of modern civilization, we must identify its advocates, understand their goals and strategies, evaluate their strengths and weaknesses, and effectively counter their every move. What we are talking about is nothing less than a global struggle for the soul of Islam.

The Sunni (as opposed to Shiite) fundamentalists' goals generally include: claiming to restore the perfection of the early Islam practiced by Muhammad and his companions, who are known in Arabic as al-Salaf al-Salih, "the Righteous Ancestors"; establishing a utopian society based on these Salafi principles, by imposing their interpretation of Islamic law on all members of society; annihilating local variants of Islam in the name of authenticity and purity; transforming Islam from a personal faith into an authoritarian political system; establishing a pan-Islamic caliphate governed according to the strict tenets of Salafi Islam, and often conceived as stretching from Morocco to Indonesia and the Philippines; and, ultimately, bringing the entire world under the sway of their extremist ideology.
Fundamentalist strategy is often simple as well as brilliant. Extremists are quick to drape themselves in the mantle of Islam and declare their opponents kafir, or infidels, and thus smooth the way for slaughtering nonfundamentalist Muslims. Their theology rests upon a simplistic, literal and highly selective reading of the Quran and Sunnah (prophetic traditions), through which they seek to entrap the world-wide Muslim community in the confines of their narrow ideological grasp. Expansionist by nature, most fundamentalist groups constantly probe for weakness and an opportunity to strike, at any time or place, to further their authoritarian goals.

The armed ghazis (Islamic warriors) raiding from New York to Jakarta, Istanbul, Baghdad, London and Madrid are only the tip of the iceberg, forerunners of a vast and growing population that shares their radical views and ultimate objectives. The formidable strengths of this worldwide fundamentalist movement include:

1) An aggressive program with clear ideological and political goals; 2) immense funding from oil-rich Wahhabi sponsors; 3) the ability to distribute funds in impoverished areas to buy loyalty and power; 4) a claim to and aura of religious authenticity and Arab prestige; 5) an appeal to Islamic identity, pride and history; 6) an ability to blend into the much larger traditionalist masses and blur the distinction between moderate Islam and their brand of religious extremism; 7) full-time commitment by its agents/leadership; 8) networks of Islamic schools that propagate extremism; 9) the absence of organized opposition in the Islamic world; 10) a global network of fundamentalist imams who guide their flocks to extremism; 11) a well-oiled "machine" established to translate, publish and distribute Wahhabi/Salafi propaganda and disseminate its ideology throughout the world; 12) scholarships for locals to study in Saudi Arabia and return with degrees and indoctrination, to serve as future leaders; 13) the ability to cross national and cultural borders in the name of religion; 14) Internet communication; and 15) the reluctance of many national governments to supervise or control this entire process.

We must employ effective strategies to counter each of these fundamentalist strengths. This can be accomplished only by bringing the combined weight of the vast majority of peace-loving Muslims, and the non-Muslim world, to bear in a coordinated global campaign whose goal is to resolve the crisis of misunderstanding that threatens to engulf our entire world.

An effective counterstrategy must be based upon a realistic assessment of our own strengths and weaknesses in the face of religious extremism and terror. Disunity, of course, has proved fatal to countless human societies faced with a similar existential threat. A lack of seriousness in confronting the imminent danger is likewise often fatal. Those who seek to promote a peaceful and tolerant understanding of Islam must overcome the paralyzing effects of inertia, and harness a number of actual or potential strengths, which can play a key role in neutralizing fundamentalist ideology. These strengths not only are assets in the struggle with religious extremism, but in their mirror form they point to the weakness at the heart of fundamentalist ideology. They are:

1) Human dignity, which demands freedom of conscience and rejects the forced imposition of religious views; 2) the ability to mobilize immense resources to bring to bear on this problem, once it is identified and a global commitment is made to solve it; 3) the ability to leverage resources by supporting individuals and organizations that truly embrace a peaceful and tolerant Islam; 4) nearly 1,400 years of Islamic traditions and spirituality, which are inimical to fundamentalist ideology; 5) appeals to local and national--as well as Islamic--culture/traditions/pride; 6) the power of the feminine spirit, and the fact that half of humanity consists of women, who have an inherent stake in the outcome of this struggle; 7) traditional and Sufi leadership and masses, who are not yet radicalized (strong numeric advantage: 85% to 90% of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims); 8) the ability to harness networks of Islamic schools to propagate a peaceful and tolerant Islam; 9) the natural tendency of like-minded people to work together when alerted to a common danger; 10) the ability to form a global network of like-minded individuals, organizations and opinion leaders to promote moderate and progressive ideas throughout the Muslim world; 11) the existence of a counterideology, in the form of traditional, Sufi and modern Islamic teachings, and the ability to translate such works into key languages; 12) the benefits of modernity, for all its flaws, and the widespread appeal of popular culture; 13) the ability to cross national and cultural borders in the name of religion; 14) Internet communications, to disseminate progressive views--linking and inspiring like-minded individuals and organizations throughout the world; 15) the nation-state; and 16) the universal human desire for freedom, justice and a better life for oneself and loved ones.

Though potentially decisive, most of these advantages remain latent or diffuse, and require mobilization to be effective in confronting fundamentalist ideology. In addition, no effort to defeat religious extremism can succeed without ultimately cutting off the flow of petrodollars used to finance that extremism, from Leeds to Jakarta.

Only by recognizing the problem, putting an end to the bickering within and between nation-states, and adopting a coherent long-term plan (executed with international leadership and commitment) can we begin to apply the brakes to the rampant spread of extremist ideas and hope to resolve the world's crisis of misunderstanding before the global economy and modern civilization itself begin to crumble in the face of truly devastating attacks.

Muslims themselves can and must propagate an understanding of the "right" Islam, and thereby discredit extremist ideology. Yet to accomplish this task requires the understanding and support of like-minded individuals, organizations and governments throughout the world. Our goal must be to illuminate the hearts and minds of humanity, and offer a compelling alternate vision of Islam, one that banishes the fanatical ideology of hatred to the darkness from which it emerged.

Mr. Wahid, former president of Indonesia, is patron and senior advisor to the LibForAll Foundation (www.libforall.org), an Indonesian and U.S.-based nonprofit that works to reduce religious extremism and discredit the use of terrorism.

**Lunatock** · 01-04-2006, 13:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insomniac

Nevermind, I just discovered that over 50% of the middle east is illiterate. No wonder we are having a failure to communicate with some people over there.

"Slay them wherever ye find them!"

"but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

Contradicting itself there.

Your just being stubborn and refuse to accept the facts you were given.

Quote:

Muhammed himself said that he is the prophet that brings the sword. From the other post you guys seem to think I am mad at Islam. No, I actually pity them for choosing this path in life. I have looking into the history of Islam and it is really a bunch of killing. The first thing that the muslims did when formed was murder all the Christians and Jews that inhabited the city of Mecca. They fought the surrounding societies and later they attempted to conquer the entire continent of Europe, but fortunately a man named Charles Martel or "Charlemagne" stopped them.

I don't care if the internal Jihad is greater than the external Jihad. It sure hasn't stopped terrorists and as long as there is an external Jihad there always will be terrorists. The Quran okays a fully armed Jihad against anyone who oppresses Islam, but what they forget to mention is how they define the word "oppression." Many orthodox Muslims believe that if a nation's leaders do not acknowledge the rule of Islam, then those rulers are "oppressors" and thus a legitimate target for war. Many Muslims argue that America is a cultural aggressor by exporting its Hollywood values all over the world, and thus any fight against Americans is done in self-defense. Therefore, there is no end to how a Muslim group can define "self-defense" and "oppression" and thus find an Islamic justification for violence.

The societies in the Bible that the Israelites whipped out were very perverse and violent that threatened the other pure societies. Those were societies from days past that don't exist today. There is such a thing as taking a life to save more life. The Islamic terrorists are killing people for believing in something that does not line up with Muhammed's teaching.

Wait. Why bring the Bible into this in the first place? Who cares about the Bible? You don't see Christians blowing themselves up in schools packed with children. As far as I am concerned as long as they aren't turning into to kamakazies, I don't care about them. The subject is the Quran.

I rest my case.

Quote:

However, I now see that my age somehow ranks my intelligence and anything I say is just thought of as ignorance from a young man who hates to see people get murdered. So, there really is no point in me saying anything more.

The classic declaration of leaving. Wonder if it'll be lived up to this time?

Ray · 01-04-2006, 15:22 PM

Actually, the more I see of Islam on the net, the more confusing it becomes.

The comprehension becomes worse because the various sects/ groups or whatever you wish to call them i.e. Sunni, Shia, Wahabis, Sufis, Islamiyas, Ahmediyyas, Bohras, Iranis etc etc give their own interpretation and each one does with vehement protestations that they alone are the true saviours of Islam!

As you start believing the last chap, up comes another, like a jack in the box, and throws a new one for interpretation and that too with sound logic!

Samudra · 01-05-2006, 00:00 AM

Quote:

Sufis........

Quote:

.......they alone are the true saviours of Islam!

01-04-2006, 15:22 PM	#44 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,206 Country:	Actually, the more I see of Islam on the net, the more confusing it becomes. The comprehension becomes worse because the various sects/ groups or whatever you wish to call them i.e. Sunni, Shia, Wahabis, Sufis, Islamiyas, Ahmediyyas, Bohras, Iranis etc etc give their own interpretation and each one does with vehement protestations that they alone are the true saviours of Islam! As you start believing the last chap, up comes another, like a jack in the box, and throws a new one for interpretation and that too with sound logic! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

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01-02-2006, 13:17 PM	#31 (permalink)
Samudra *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-01-04 Location: North London Posts: 4,357 Country:	meh! I deleted it! Anyway, that was supposed to be about what people are doing with Hinduism! If the writers of the Upanishads were alive today, they would probally find a Gun and shoot themselves dead.

01-03-2006, 03:03 AM	#35 (permalink)
sparten Actus Reus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 04-10-04 Location: You would like to know would'nt you? Posts: 1,695 Country:	Well I dispute the fact that Christ was Pacifist, mainly since his ministry never got to the stage Muhammads did, i.e ceased to be a purely religious one. Historically, the Prophet hated viloence. He refused to allow any fighting for the longest time, even despite the advice of all around him. Took a revelation from God, literally to convince him otherwise.

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