Tibet protest in a perspective. - Page 19

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

Let me guess, the answer is to buy from CHINA. Even Pakistan doesnt want Chinese electronics in their JF-17's,(which they are getting practically free) says a lot about Chinese quality.

The Paks are getting Chinese electronics. The French bid is only for the later birds.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

Then there is a right of self-defence and retaliation.

Only if they win and they are not going to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

I have to disagree. Its just not. Its Chinese occupied Land.

The documents of annexation have already been signed by both sides and that includes the Dali Lama. Do recall that the Chinese were initially welcomed into Tibet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

How does People China inherit some documents kings made, it doesnt even make legal sense. I thought Communist didnt want anything to do with Imperalists and their games?

I have absolutely no idea where you get this baloney. Where do Chinese borders and Russian borders came from if not from their imperial past? Where did their civil histories and responsibilities come from if not from their imperial past? Where do their embassies stand if not from their imperial past? Where did they get their start up monies if not from their imperial past?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

That's only if the those people who are in those countries wish to be so. Tibetians dont seem to agree, they are not ready to make their country disappear.

Their country is gone and no hope of ever coming back. Not without an army and they're not getting one. After that, their ONLY choice is to make a life for themselves inside of a greater China. They can chaffed and riot and demand more monies (which is what this is really about) but in the end, these would be Chinese monies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

I will have to disgree sternely.

You may disagree but you are wrong.

Adux · 03-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The Paks are getting Chinese electronics. The French bid is only for the later birds.

Sir,

Which shows as you have pointed out before in various threads, JF-17 aint a good fighter, China airforces are not that interested in it. Pakistani's are dis-statisfied with Chinese Electronics.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 09:56 AM

And in the process, try to turn the JF-17 into something that it's not - a multi-role fighter.

Ray · 03-24-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

12.15pm GMT

Tibet protesters disrupt Olympic flame ceremony

Tibet protest at Olympia

Pro-Tibetan protesters today disturbed a high security ceremony to light the Olympic flame in Greece.

International dignitaries were gathered at Olympia, the site of the ancient Olympics, when three members of the Paris-based Reporters Without Borders ran onto the field to disrupt a speech by Liu Qi, president of the Beijing organising committee and Beijing Communist party secretary.

The demonstrator who got nearest to Liu Qi was carrying a banner showing the Olympic Rings as handcuffs but failed to unfurl it before being arrested.

Police detained the men along with a Tibetan campaigner and a Greek photographer travelling with him in the nearby village of Olympia, just outside the site of the ancient Games.

Lhadon Tethong, director of Students for a Free Tibet, said the men were taken to the local police station. "One of our colleagues saw them being dragged by about 20 police through town," he said.

"If the Olympic flame is sacred, human rights are even more so," Reporters Without Borders said in a statement. "We cannot let the Chinese government seize the Olympic flame, a symbol of peace, without denouncing the dramatic situation of human rights in the country."

When the incident took place, Chinese state TV cut away to a pre-recorded scene, preventing Chinese viewers from seeing the protest. TV commentators on Chinese TV did not mention the incident.

After the arrest of the men the ceremony went ahead smoothly. Actor Maria Nafpliotou, dressed as a high priestess, used a convex mirror to catch the sun's rays and light the Olympic flame.

International Olympic committee president Jacques Rogge attended the ceremony and said afterwards: "It's always sad when there are protests. But they were not violent and I think that's the important thing."

Once lit, Nafpliotou handed the torch to Alexandros Nikolaidis, who won a silver medal in taekwondo at the 2004 Athens Games but the progress of the flame was hindered by protestors along its route.

Several pro-Tibet demonstrators, including a Tibetan woman whose body had been painted red, lay down on the road in the athelete's path.

A total 645 torchbearers will carry the flame for a week over 950 miles through Greece. It will make a stopover at the Acropolis before being handed over to Chinese officials at the Athens stadium where the first modern Olympics were held in 1896.

The flame will travel 85,000 miles across five continents to reach the Olympic stadium in Beijing on August 8.

Demonstrations continued today in countries neighbouring Tibet. In northeast India, police stopped nearly 500 Tibetan exiles from marching to the Chinese border to demand a halt to China's crackdown on protesters in Tibet.

Police blocked their entry into the state of Sikkim that borders China, said an officer, Sonam Bhutia. The protesters carried Tibetan flags and chanted slogans demanding they be allowed to go to Tibet.

"We have barricaded the road and we shall not allow the Tibetans to continue the march," Bhutia told the Associated Press.

The Tibetans living in India's northeast began their march on Thursday from the state of West Bengal and planned to enter China using the Nathu La pass in Sikkim.

"The goal of the marchers is to fight shoulder to shoulder with Tibetans inside Tibet," said Ugyen Tsewang, general secretary of the Northeast Tibetan Youth Congress, which organized the march.

"We haven't given up our effort yet. We are persuading the state authorities to allow us continue our march," Tsewang said by phone from Rongpo, a town in West Bengal state.

"We will start a hunger strike if the state authorities don't accept our demand," he said.

"We want to confront the Chinese police and not the Indian police."
Protests started on March 10 in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa on the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against Chinese rule.

They turned violent four days later, touching off demonstrations among Tibetans in three neighbouring Chinese provinces.

Beijing's official death toll from the protests is 22, but the Tibetan government-in-exile in India has said 99 Tibetans have been killed.

India has generally allowed the Tibetan exiles to protest peacefully, but earlier this month detained several dozen protesters who had planned a separate march from northern India to Tibet to coincide with the opening of the Beijing Olympics, saying India would not tolerate actions that embarrassed China.
Tibet protesters disrupt Olympic flame ceremony | World news | guardian.co.uk

I am not anti Chinese at all, Mr Flow.

However, I am anti propaganda and I am averse to situations where one likes to paint oneself holier than thou and the Chinese govt is steeped in such false piety.

Communist doublespeak is legend, no matter where they are and which period of history. But the Chinese Communist govt has made it into a fine art.

I have no bias.

If there is bias, then the above article indicates it clearly. It is the Chinese who display the bias and keep their people blindfolded. They blanked out the protest! They are afraid to face the truth! So, could the Chinese clips on the Tibet and Lhasa protest not be a fine example of theirs being photshopped?

A totalitarian regime holds on to power through MIND CONTROL! That is why they cannot brook adverse images or commentary lest it incites the people to express dissent!

If the Chinese govt was so pious and correct about justice etc, then they would not require State control over the media. A State controlled media only promotes the Regime and makes it appear that it is all milk and honey!

In this explicit case of the protest at the Olympic Flame Ceremony, the world saw it and yet the Chinese govt hid it from their own people! Therefore, it is the Chinese govt which is Anti Human and not I!!

Therefore, how can one believe the Chinese media or the Chinese govt?

Given the Chinese govt's approach to facts (as was the blanking of the protest from its CCTV), none can believe what the Chinese govt has to say since their credibility is suspect.

So, Mr Flow, before you, like your govt, want to take a high moral stand and accuse others of biases, it would be better to do some heart searching and face the cold facts as to who is to blame for doctoring news to suit one's conveniences and who is biased.

China may blank the Tibetan protest at the Olympic Flame Ceremony on its TV. but the truth of the matter is that the world has seen it and it sure tarnishes the pious stand taken by the Chinese on issues that are unpleasant for them!

Quote:

As can be seen from Ray's posts here and elsewhere. He is anti-China, so he's comments are always bias.

Those, who supports Tibetan terrorists are ANTI-HUMAN.

What the Tibetan terrorists think is not as simple as they say "for culture and religion freedom". They instigated hatred to the Han Chinese. With extreme "nationality racism", they killed Han immigrations as a revenge to the Chinese government's economic opening policy while ignoring the facts that civilians are INNOCENT!

Those terrorists are inhuman while some people still suppost them using the veil of "human rights". If you really consider human rights, why don't you accuse Dalai's brutal kiling of Han Chinese? Are those innocent people ought to die? Do you like a massacre of Han Chinese in Tibet?

So don't be brain-washed by the media, and those anti-Chinese governments who're afraid to see a strong China.

Ray · 03-24-2008, 12:09 PM

BTW, I was watching the Olymipic Flame Ceremony on TV.

There was strict security and the commentator stated that none including the TV personnel were allowed close and that the feed was from the Greek govt which was the only source allowed!

There were hardly any people. Possibly three rows. Even my own battalion for its Sports Day would not have such a pathetic assemblage! Such was the security and on which the commentator did comment to indicate that the Greeks were ensuring everything to make the ceremony out of the purview of the Tibetans,

And lo and behold!

A man ran in and tried to unfurl the protest flag! We did see a bit and then the camera swung away!

It was broadcast to the world except China, where it was said it had been blanked out (said by the commentator who was covering it from Beijing).

So, that much for the Chinese govt's moral stand and pious platitudes and its courage to stand up for the truth!!

You talk of human rights? China does not allow the fundamental right of man to know the truth!

So, Mr Flow, my message to you is - Doctor, heal thyself - before you shrilly accuse others of bias!!

Learn to face the truth like a man and not run behind apron strings!!

Ray · 03-24-2008, 12:21 PM

The right of conquest is not valid in modern times!

If it were so then Iraq and Afghanistan would be a part of the US and the Coalition!!

One cannot go back to the rules of the medieval times to justify.

One could be obtuse enough to state that India is a part of China since Timur Lame, a Mongol and thus a Chinese, had conquered parts of India and so China has a right to claim India as a part of China!! Note: right to claim based on history!

As far as Tibet is concerned, China could walk in since the Tibetans had no Army worth the name. And the world, at that time, was too busy recouping from the devastation of the World War.

And Pandit Nehru was strutting around as the great benevolent world statesman!

And the Indian Ordnance factories were ludicrous, as it may seem, being more keen to produce coffee machines under the Communist leaning Defence Minister, Krishna Menon!

kuku · 03-24-2008, 12:28 PM

this wont be the end of it, i guess its hard to control a event as big as the Olympics.
The power of the contract and the money tied with that million dollar contract might restrict the new age athlete, there is no cause as hip as your own cause.

How will the Chinese government and people view such incidents?

It will be fun however to see every athlete campaigning for his/her own little revolution, between all of the world, i am sure we can just about flood every second of TV coverage.

Support your revolution, now.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

The right of conquest is not valid in modern times!

Sir,

Unfortunately, it does. Just from 1970 onward, we have South Vietnam, Chechnya, Slovenia, Croatia, Krajina, Sprately/Parcels, Eritrea, Sinai, Congo-Rwanda, Bangladesh, and Kosovo and those are the successful ones.

If we include the unsuccesful ones, we have Falklands, Soviet-Afghanistan, Saddam's Kuwait, Iran-Iraq, Ethiopia-Somalia, and of course your very own experience at Kargil.

It may or may not be valid in modern times but unless a superior military power reverses the actions, many will continue to view a force-of-arms as a legitimate right.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

And the Indian Ordnance factories were ludicrous, as it may seem, being more keen to produce coffee machines under the Communist leaning Defence Minister, Krishna Menon!

Sir,

YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING ME!!!!!!

Ray · 03-24-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flow

Do you want to know why the result of the election favoured the Blue Camp? Because of Taiwan's economy crash and the Green Camp's corruption.

Can Taiwan rely on the US's economic help like India? The answer is no. Because the US's economy is declining and goods imported from the US are much more expensive with no better quality. The expensive imported goods have led to serious inflation in Taiwan.

And the Green Camp's corruption, of course seldom reported in those countries that are anti-China, are well known between Taiwanese. They voted Mr. Ma partly because he's the symbol of incorruptibility.

If you don't belive, just access Taiwan news websites.

What economic help is India getting from the US?

So Taiwan is corrupt and China is pure?

Again you display Communist propaganda acumen. China is rife with corruption! And you sidestep the issue and accuse Taiwan!

Are you aware of the economic bubble of China?

Ray · 03-24-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sir,

YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING ME!!!!!!

No.

The Nehru era was all about high moral standing and India a leading star in bringing peace to the world, Panch Sheel and other nonsense.

Nehru, Nasser and Tito days of the NAM!!

You should read about the Bandung Conference and what as ass Chou en Lai made of Nehru!!

That is why I always tell you do not underestimate the Chinese.

They are sharp chaps and their goal is crystal clear.

Adux · 03-24-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sir,

YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING ME!!!!!!

Sir,
He is not.
No that was 1962 for you, We got our independence through pacifist ways, which have had a negative impact on our armed forces in the earlier days.

Ray · 03-24-2008, 13:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sir,

Unfortunately, it does. Just from 1970 onward, we have South Vietnam, Chechnya, Slovenia, Croatia, Krajina, Sprately/Parcels, Eritrea, Sinai, Congo-Rwanda, Bangladesh, and Kosovo and those are the successful ones.

If we include the unsuccesful ones, we have Falklands, Soviet-Afghanistan, Saddam's Kuwait, Iran-Iraq, Ethiopia-Somalia, and of course your very own experience at Kargil.

It may or may not be valid in modern times but unless a superior military power reverses the actions, many will continue to view a force-of-arms as a legitimate right.

I would add Korea too.

Vietnam, Korea, Chechnya, Bangladesh etc are areas which are part and parcel of one nation where the population got divided in opinion and ideology and hence it was more of a "civil war".

The Iran Iraq war did not annexe any territory. At least not to my knowledge.

If one goes by the issues, Kuwait was a principality of the area which became Iraq.

Kargil was an attempt to change the Line of Control since Pakistan feels Kashmir is a part of Pakistan. In the other wars with Pakistan all land captured had to be returned.

Force of arms cannot be the norm or else Palestine would have become non existent!!

Conquest as one would understand is definitely out. Jockeying for disputed territories through force is understandable and is feasible when powers that be are interested to allow it so.

But a conquest or an invasion over sovereign nations is definitely out.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-24-2008, 13:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

But a conquest or an invasion over sovereign nations is definitely out.

Sir,

Well? The US invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq are the obvious counter examples of this.

03-24-2008, 12:09 PM	#276 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,291 Country:	BTW, I was watching the Olymipic Flame Ceremony on TV. There was strict security and the commentator stated that none including the TV personnel were allowed close and that the feed was from the Greek govt which was the only source allowed! There were hardly any people. Possibly three rows. Even my own battalion for its Sports Day would not have such a pathetic assemblage! Such was the security and on which the commentator did comment to indicate that the Greeks were ensuring everything to make the ceremony out of the purview of the Tibetans, And lo and behold! A man ran in and tried to unfurl the protest flag! We did see a bit and then the camera swung away! It was broadcast to the world except China, where it was said it had been blanked out (said by the commentator who was covering it from Beijing). So, that much for the Chinese govt's moral stand and pious platitudes and its courage to stand up for the truth!! You talk of human rights? China does not allow the fundamental right of man to know the truth! So, Mr Flow, my message to you is - Doctor, heal thyself - before you shrilly accuse others of bias!! Learn to face the truth like a man and not run behind apron strings!! Last edited by Ray : 03-24-2008 at 13:28 PM.

03-24-2008, 12:21 PM	#277 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,291 Country:	The right of conquest is not valid in modern times! If it were so then Iraq and Afghanistan would be a part of the US and the Coalition!! One cannot go back to the rules of the medieval times to justify. One could be obtuse enough to state that India is a part of China since Timur Lame, a Mongol and thus a Chinese, had conquered parts of India and so China has a right to claim India as a part of China!! Note: right to claim based on history! As far as Tibet is concerned, China could walk in since the Tibetans had no Army worth the name. And the world, at that time, was too busy recouping from the devastation of the World War. And Pandit Nehru was strutting around as the great benevolent world statesman! And the Indian Ordnance factories were ludicrous, as it may seem, being more keen to produce coffee machines under the Communist leaning Defence Minister, Krishna Menon! Last edited by Ray : 03-24-2008 at 12:28 PM.

03-24-2008, 12:28 PM	#278 (permalink)
kuku *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-28-08 Location: delhi Posts: 860 Country:	this wont be the end of it, i guess its hard to control a event as big as the Olympics. The power of the contract and the money tied with that million dollar contract might restrict the new age athlete, there is no cause as hip as your own cause. How will the Chinese government and people view such incidents? It will be fun however to see every athlete campaigning for his/her own little revolution, between all of the world, i am sure we can just about flood every second of TV coverage. Support your revolution, now. __________________ cheers

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03-24-2008, 09:56 AM	#274 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,072 Country:	And in the process, try to turn the JF-17 into something that it's not - a multi-role fighter.

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