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Having Tibetans who are communists pretending to do so is a travesty of democracy, as they are so obviously puppets carrying out the wishes of their Beijing masters.
Couldn't have said it better Glyn!
Then there are those who loudly & vociferously protested the puppet regime of Babrak Karmal & Najibullah Ahmadzai as being stooges of the USSR, but fail to see and/or ignore the parallels of China/Tibet.
I was not aware that I was implying as such. My apologies if you took it that way. It was not meant to.
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Originally Posted by Ray
Drugs and politics are two different things.
For us, they are, Sir but not to the CCP. They are both challenges to the State and there were publicized executions for Tianamen Square. My point remains that if it indeed there are mass executions, it would be out of character for the CCP not to broadcast them.
Of course, people can have accidents but that is another story.
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Originally Posted by Ray
I also understand your loyalty to your race.
Sir, like Andy, I am dispassionate about the Tibet affair. My loyalty always remains with Canada. It interests me as far as my favourite subject is concerned but I don't have a say nor do I want a say in their affairs. I just want to understand how they arrive at their decisions and actions.
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Originally Posted by Ray
To be off guard in a totalitarian society where everything is watched is indeed stupid.
Sir, but it does happen. Hungary, Czechoslovakia took an outside Soviet Invasion to re-establish communist rule. Romania's Ceaucescu did not foresee himself being shot against the wall. Gorbachev didn't see a coup coming. Putin didn't see a Chechen incursion into Dagestan, Moscow, and Beslan.
Even within China's own history, things have gotten out of CCP control extremely fast. The Great Proliterate Cultural Revolution, The Great Leaps Forward, the Let 100 Flowers Bloom Campaign, Zhou En-Lai's Funeral, Democracy Wall, Tienamen Square, and now this.
While the CCP would like to present the image of ever watching, ever knowing, the reality is that they are nowhere close being that good.
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Originally Posted by Ray
If the USSR is reprehensible and even Putin now, what makes China so loveable?
I don't know how to answer that, Sir, except to say that as strategic partners go, India is looking mighty good right about now.
I also think it unlikely that Tibet will ever be fully independent, but the Tibetan people must have a genuine input into the way their country is run. Having Tibetans who are communists pretending to do so is a travesty of democracy, as they are so obviously puppets carrying out the wishes of their Beijing masters.
Well, Glyn, the Tibetans have as much say in how their country is supposed to be run as the rest of the Chinese population have ... which is to say ... none.
I was not aware that I was implying as such. My apologies if you took it that way. It was not meant to.
Colonel,
Being a one man army, on this forum and others. I am tired with all these posts and so my apologies.
I am against violence.
Even in Kashmir, I was on first name basis with some ''dreaded'' terrorists! Let me tell you that it worked wonders. No one is a skunk. All it requires is a patient ear!
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For us, they are, Sir but not to the CCP. They are both challenges to the State and there were publicized executions for Tianamen Square. My point remains that if it indeed there are mass executions, it would be out of character for the CCP not to broadcast them.
Is that the world's problem if they don't want to publicise?
Why hold us responsible for their omissions?
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Sir, like Andy, I am dispassionate about the Tibet affair. My loyalty always remains with Canada. It interests me as far as my favourite subject is concerned but I don't have a say nor do I want a say in their affairs. I just want to understand how they arrive at their decisions and actions.
Colonel,
I understand.
But also I understand the psychology of race, more so, when it is doing so exceedingly well.
I would be equally proud!!
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Sir, but it does happen. Hungary, Czechoslovakia took an outside Soviet Invasion to re-establish communist rule. Romania's Ceaucescu did not foresee himself being shot against the wall. Gorbachev didn't see a coup coming. Putin didn't see a Chechen incursion into Dagestan, Moscow, and Beslan.
Even within China's own history, things have gotten out of CCP control extremely fast. The Great Proliterate Cultural Revolution, The Great Leaps Forward, the Let 100 Flowers Bloom Campaign, Zhou En-Lai's Funeral, Democracy Wall, Tienamen Square, and now this.
While the CCP would like to present the image of ever watching, ever knowing, the reality is that they are nowhere close being that good.
I don't know how to answer that, Sir, except to say that as strategic partners go, India is looking mighty good right about now.
The Communists are cruel and they doublespeak with pious homilies to get out of tight corners!!
You live in a free country and so you will not understand.
I am not concerned about India here.
India is wimpish!!
__________________
"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."
I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.
Couldnt agree more, But only comfort that gives me in such a grim situation is the abilitiy of this country to come back with the death blow, after being hit several times.
The mere fact that we take much punishment, let our people go through hell and loose our objectivies, before coming to our senses and taking desicive action.
You have to hide the brutal repression, Mao style!!!
1,When the "freedom fighter" was arrested, she didn't try to yell anything to the Tipten, she didn't give any Expression about the independent, she just yelled" XX China" again and again towards the camera lens , try to let all the world know China is a **** country. If she was fighting for the independent, why don't yell sth about their great ideas to the tipten. Obviously , she wanted to defame China more than excited their compatriots. They work for some fori foreign organization , they have just one purpose: defame China .
2,Wether the journalists are part of the organization ? We didn't know. So , first we should try best to steady the situation and then consider the freedom of meadia, our plocy is " server for the people" , not for foregin journalists.
3,West medias always make fake news about tipet, it is their traditional,I give you some examples in the attachment.look at the pics.
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What's so surprising about someone talking in English?
Not for English ,but for English in this situation.
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Could you tell me how much a English teacher cost in China?
1800/month,less than 270 dollars.
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If my son in law was posted there (he is in an US MNC which pays a Kings ransom), my daughter, who is an English teacher, would earn more than him!!
You have a outstanding boy and a more outstanding daughter, congratulations,old man
Well we should have expected the KMT to win, even before the riots. They won big in the legislative elections in Jan. I don't think we should read too much into KMT's willingness to unify with China. Taiwan doesn't exactly have a lot of friends in the world, and the US has been reluctant to sell them weapons of late; due to concerns over their budget.
I really don't know what to think but in hindsight that it's obvious that there must have been a group willing to work with Beijing
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Endgame for the Dalai Lama: Black Hats Sect Dismantling Power Base
New America Media, News analysis, Yoichi Shimatsu, Posted: Mar 21, 2008
Editor’s note: The façade of Tibetan unity has unraveled and along with it, the Dalai Lama’s power base. Yoichi Shimatsu, former editor of the Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo, was executive producer of the video documentary “Flight of a Karmapa” (Nachtvision 2002) taped in the Tsurphu area of Tibet, the Mustang region of Nepal, Sikkim and Dharamsala.
Hezuo, Gansu Province – For decades, the Beijing government had recognized the Dalai Lama as its sole negotiating partner in Tibetan affairs. For the officialdom, it was simpler to deal with a single person -- the “pontiff” of Tibetan Buddhism – to control the entire ethnic population. The façade of Tibetan unity was convenient to both sides but now it has unraveled, and it’s the endgame for the Dalai Lama.
By ordering the monks of his Gelugpa or Yellow Hat sect to hold peaceful rallies on the 49th anniversary of the Chinese invasion, the Dalai Lama -- unwittingly -- ignited pent-up emotions among Lhasa residents. Scenes like the head bashing, stoning and kicking of a prostrate bicycle owner arose from popular grievances against runaway price inflation and perceived discrimination against Tibetans in their own land. Such cruelty, regardless of past injustices, has nothing to do with Buddhist teachings but arises from the human condition.
Unfortunately for the Dalai Lama, the loyalists in his once-powerful organization inside Tibet are being selectively investigated, arrested and detained for causing the violence. The Beijing government has repeatedly stated that only a small minority of Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama were involved in the protests. Whatever its legal flaws, there’s more than a grain of truth in the official assertion.
Amid the mayhem and anarchy, a decisive factor in the Tibetan equation has gone practically unnoticed: Key major players did not join or support the protests:
-- The Panchen Lama, a top prelate of the Gelugpa or Yellow Hat school, second in rank only to the Dalai Lama himself, has spoken in no uncertain terms against the rioting and instead backed the government.
-- Leaders of the Nyingma and Sakya schools, as well as the native Bon religion, did not endorse the protests and are tight-lipped about the wave of arrests.
-- Laymen with the re-ascendant Kagyupa or Black Hat school, are furious with the Dalai Lama after being targeted by Gelugpa supporters during the horsemen’s raid on the Hezuo local district office in south Gansu and in several counties in Sichuan Province.
In this negative light, the rallies by the Gelugpa monks seemed a desperate bid to reassert the Dalai Lama’s authority by accusing their Tibetan rivals of being “collaborators” and presenting themselves as the “resistance.” Due to the unintended violence, however, the Yellow Hats find themselves as the odd man out. Following the crackdown, rival sects are moving to dismantle the remnants of the Gelugpa organization, which had the monopoly of power over the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) and other districts as recently as five years ago.
If the façade of Tibetan unity was convenient, it now no longer serves.
In January 2000, the Chinese view of the Dalai Lama started to undergo a radical change during the affair known as the “Flight of the Karmapa” - covered in a documentary by Nachtvision. The Karmapa is the head lama of the Kagyupa, or Black Hat school, which ruled Tibet until the reign of the 5th Dalai Lama began in 1642.
At the turn of the millennium, the teenage Karmapa, born Ogyen Trinley Dorje, began a secret journey from his seat in Tsurphu monastery, west of Lhasa, to Sikkim in north India to recover the mystic Black Crown of the Kagyupa. In the bid to strengthen his nomination against other contenders, the Karmapa rode horseback on a tortuous path through the frozen wilderness of Nepal’s Mustang region. At the 4,500-meters altitude Thorong-La Pass, he was separated from his Nepalese Kagyupa guide and whisked aboard a mountain-rescue helicopter. He soon turned up under virtual house arrest near the Dalai Lama’s headquarters in Dharamsala, India.
As told by his guide, the Venerable Gyaltsen Rimpoche, nicknamed the “Tall Manangi,” the Ogyen Trinley had to retrieve the charismatic crown because “in Lhasa the Karmapa was rising and becoming more popular, so the Gelugpa did not like it and the situation was becoming dangerous for him.” Only the magic talisman could turn the tables on the powerful Yellow Hats.
In the eyes of many Kagyupa monks, the Karmapa has been abducted by the Dalai Lama’s exile government and remains a hostage to the senior leader of a rival sect. The Black Hats responded furiously with demands to Beijing that Gelugpa monks should be stripped of their control over the Tibet province budget and other privileges.
Feeling sorely betrayed by the Dalai Lama, who had earlier backed the appointment of Orgyen Trinley as Karmapa, Beijing consented to the Black Hat’s harsh demands. Thus ended the Yellow Hats’ monopoly on power inside Tibet. Since then, the local governments of many Tibetan zones have been taken over by laymen loyal to the Black Hats. Hezuo, the scene of the horsemen’s well-publicized raid, is the site of the Kagyupa’s Milarepa Shrine. Horses were used in the attack because the raiders came from the Xiahe district, the stronghold of the rival Gelugpa’s Labrang Monastery.
This realignment of sectarian power in Tibet, which can be compared with the Protestant Reformation in Europe, is only now coming to light in public discourse after the Lhasa riots. A People’s Daily editorial, titled “No return to old Tibet” (March 18), stated: “the political exile (Dalai Lama) has continued his rule with an iron fist that smashes any challenge to his power from anyone or any sect. . . . Local Tibetans have managed their affairs well without his interference.”
In private, many exiles across the Himalayas, including former Khampa guerrillas who fought the Chinese army in the 1960s, recount disturbing allegations of the Dalai Lama’s security team's involvement in the murdering of his critics by poisoning and bombing. This dark side of intra-Tibetan intrigue is yet to be factually uncovered before world opinion.
In an ultimate irony, the only person who can prevent the coming demolition and disgrace of the Gelugpa school is Gyeltshen Norbu, the Beijing-appointed Panchen Lama.
The Panchen Lama probably won’t rush to their defense, not after pro-Dharamsala lamas lobbied furiously against Beijing’s attempt to appoint the young lama as a delegate to the National People’s Congress, held in early March, arguing that he was not yet 18 years of age. To avoid controversy, Beijing reluctantly conceded, even though the official birth date of Gyeltshen Norbu was February 13, 1990, making him 18 and eligible.
The Panchen Lama is likely to receive Buddhist VIPs at the Beijing Olympics. An audience and blessing from the bright young monk will certainly win international support for his confirmation of the next reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. It is the traditional custom for the Panchen Lama to confirm the reincarnated Dalai Lama and vice versa. By contrast, high-ranking monks have scoffed at the Dalai Lama’s idea of forming a committee to elect a successor.
The recent uprising in Lhasa, despite its grim pathos, is a reminder of the tragic 1959 insurrection that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Tibetans. In both cases, the 14th Dalai Lama badly miscalculated the divisions among his own people, Beijing’s strategic determination, and the moral hypocrisy of the international community.
In the Buddhist view, all things come full circle. In the 17th century, the 5th Dalai Lama called in a Mongol general to overthrow the Karmapa’s theocracy. Today, the Karmapa’s men are ousting the Gelugpa power structure. Ceaseless change is unstoppable, taught Sakyamuni Buddha. Thus, attachment only results in suffering – our attachment to wealth, power, pride, respect and, most of all, to love, the meanest vice yet highest virtue of human existence. Not even his bitter opponents can dispute the deep love of His Holiness the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso for his homeland, Tibet. How difficult it must be now, to let go.
Taiwan's new era begins, closer and closer to the mainland, we will unify fianlly , now it is the time to discuss the price.
Ma said he will vist mainland if he wins , he is welcomed .
The green pan which fight for the indepandent will never ruling again , Ma and KMT has enough time to practice what they planned .
Taiwan's economy will recover for the help of mainland, KMT will win more people's support.
so basically, these people are religious extremists. what do you think will happen if Tibet becomes its own country again. Will it be a democracy or go back to the feudal religious society that it was in the 50s?
You so not become an extremist simply by the act of being religious in nature and the freedom of religion is also a freedom people desire.
It will in all probability become a place where the people look up to a religious figure and have some form of government (democratic).
An example of this can be seen in Dharamshala its really is not the Dalai Lama be all end all people make it out to be, tremendous variance of political thought can be seen with in that place.
The form of governance in itself is not a problem to me, people criticize China for being a closed society, however i do not care, it seems the people are happy with living in China. And i do not care about all the BS of human rights and what not, i have seen much darker things right here in the so called democratic India.
However i do sympathize with the Tibetans as long as they are able to follow the path of non violence, of non cooperation rather than rioting.
As it reminds me of the stories that my grandfather used to tell of his youth.
For us, they are, Sir but not to the CCP. They are both challenges to the State and there were publicized executions for Tianamen Square. My point remains that if it indeed there are mass executions, it would be out of character for the CCP not to broadcast them.
Sir, I am not very sure I agree with that acessment. China is acutely aware of its public image, and being so close to the Games, and under so much expectation, rhetorical or genuine, that its human rights record would improve, I think the CCP has a major incentive to be hush-hush about what they are doing in Tibet. I think in this case the CCP has the asbolute backing of the Chinese people because it is a matter of Han racial/national pride, so much so that it wouldn't need to broadcast it on news media; it certainly didn't need to reinforce its point to the Tibetans; and during the Taiwanese elections CCP probably wanted to keep any international publicity of the Tibetan crisis at a minimal.
Well, Glyn, the Tibetans have as much say in how their country is supposed to be run as the rest of the Chinese population have ... which is to say ... none.
However that is not an excuse to castigate the Tibetans for asserting their basic unalienable undeniable god given rights to practice their religion and culture freely. It is like the Romans forcing the Jews or Christians in obeying the Roman gods as a symbol of acquisance to Roman authority when it is against the tenets of their faith.
Interesting, I see historical parallels of Chinese suppression of Tibet with the Roman suppression of the Jew uprising and other Christian insurrections.
I do both, we've seen a couple of pictures of dead Tibetans. Nothing too surprising.
so, where is this picture of mass execution of rioters?
Once again, not every police have the right gears for riot protection. If they get attacked, shooting is a very plausible way of self-defense.
if Tibetans don't riot again, life will go on as usual.
At the Boston Masscre some Americans threw a volley of rocks at the British troops. The British retaliated by musketry and a mere handful of civilians were dead. Tibet has at least seventy. The American War of Independence was justified by grounds more relative to this in Tibet.
For me, it all comes down to whether an alien, imperialist power has the right to quel an uprising of its subject people. If they don't have a right to be there, they are not entitled to self-defense.
03-22-2008, 18:27 PM
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