Adux

Afghan Engineer,

Welcome. Do make a visit to the Introduction sub-fora

Adu

Agnostic Muslim

Afghan Engineer,

Welcome to the forum - its always interesting hearing from Pashtuns whose loyalties are based on ethnonationalism rather than country. As a member of a Pakistani forum, the majority of whose senior membership and a large part of its regular membership is comprised of pashtuns (who express diametrically opposed views to yours), pardon me for being skeptical of your opinion.

On the subject of being "more Afghan" than Pakistani however, it is interesting that you mention being "Afghan" over "Pashtun" because the two are not necessarily synonymous. The Pashtun only comprise about forty percent of the population of Afghanistan, and have to share the nation with the Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras etc. ethnic groups who of late haven't had the best of experiences with each other.

On the subject of the "fence" - the issue has only been raised because of US pressure to stop unautorised cross-border movement between the two nations, so perhaps you should take it up with NATO, who is also not averse to bombing "suspicious" groups of Pashtun and their dwellings - inside Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan has never had any issue with the Tribes crosing the border, it has only been a recent development due to the "Afghan President" accusing the "Pakistani Pashtun Tribes" of providing a safe haven to Taliban members who are carrying out attacks on NATO and Afghan troops. "Your Afghan President" (and NATO) is the one demanding that the Pakistani Army forcibly stop the Tribes from crossing. Remember that Pakistan never wanted to deploy its forces in FATA, but selective arguments serve to further the "foreignor responsible for all ills" narrative, so it is expected.

Your ranting about "elitist land grabs by the Punjabis" I will relegate to just that, "ranting" - until you can articulate your argument with a little more facts and sources. I am not sure where you are living, but I see no "Pashtun and Punjabis killing each other until they are all destroyed" - I mostly see Pashtuns killing other Pashtuns. But the narrative that a "foreignor" is responsible for all of ones ills is an interesting phenomenon - you see it in the Muslim world in general as well, where most Muslims continue to blame the West for their ills, and ignore the fact that it is "fellow Muslims" who are causing most of the problems and violence - an inability to address the root cause of the problem because it involves self critique, and an acceptance that ones society/culture has failed on certain issues.

As far as Bangladesh is concerned - good for them - Pakistan has enough problems right now to be concerned with having to deal with a disconnected Eastern Wing. I, and many Pakistanis I know, have no regrets about the separation, but do regret any excesses that may have been committed by the PA in Bangladesh, as I hope do those who were opposed to "West Pakistan" for the crimes they committed.

__________________
Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah

S-2

"...NATO, who is also not averse to bombing "suspicious" groups of Pashtun and their dwellings..."

We've NEVER singled out Pashtus for bombing. I'm certain that sinhalese, punjabis, and bengalis have as much to fear should they come within range of our weapons. In point of fact, we'll bomb anybody regardless of race, creed, or color.

Even ourselves sometime.

Propagating the myth of keepin' those pashtuns down, eh A.M.?

__________________
"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Agnostic Muslim

I never suggested that you were singling the Pashtun's out for bombing, but it is also a fact that the majority of NATO caused casualties are in Pashtun areas (since the insurgency and taliban operations are concentrated in those areas), just as most of the casulaties caused by the PA currently are in Pashtun areas, for the same reason.

I am pointing this out to show that AE's argument of Pakistan wanting to "seperate the pashtuns" by fencing or policing the Tribal border is primarily a result of NATO pressure. Pakistan did not want to deploy its army in FATA, nor did it wish to fight the Tribesmen, so it is inaccurate to further an already flawed narrative of "Punjabi elite domination" by lumping in events that Pakistan was forced into.

Our military has followed an extremely defensive and reactive doctrine in FATA, at the expense of higher casualties, precisely because it wanted to keep collateral damage low - making a distinction between that doctrine and the reasons behind it, and how NATO operates (which does not automatically mean that NATO doctrine is flawed or that it does not care for civilian casualties) is important in the context of answering the accusations leveled by this gentleman at Pakistan.

Agnostic Muslim

S-2
I would like to point out to you that the majority of those on another forum that I remember you having discussions with, over the premise presented above, are Pashtuns.

Agnostic Muslim

Afghan Engineer,

I would also like to point out to you that in your quest to create this story of "Punjabi Elites capturing land", you forget that the residents of the NWFP freely and overwhelmingly chose the option to join Pakistan in a referendum. The most popular nationalist party in the NWFP, the ANP, completely accepts the role of the Pashtun as part of a Pakistani Federation. The ANP and the PPP together obtained an overwhelming majority of the seats in the NWFP legislature, so at this point at least you are part of a dying breed.

S-2

Sorry dude.

I was actually only having a little fun. No substantive complaints with your presentation (once filtered for western sensibilities).

As example, there's more than "accusations" behind this-

"...it has only been a recent development due to the "Afghan President" accusing the "Pakistani Pashtun Tribes" of providing a safe haven to Taliban members who are carrying out attacks on NATO and Afghan troops."

Is 2002 recent or nearly as long as the Afghan insurgency?

I actually never knew the demographics elsewhere until you mentioned them in an earlier post w/ A.E. Not particularly surprising. How about you? Pashtun?

Agnostic Muslim

No need to apologize S-2. I understood your concern about how I made the argument, and it is easy to cross over into "NATO bashing" when trying to weave through the dynamics of the conflict.

I'm afraid I couldn't follow what you were asking here...

EDIT:

Never mind, I understand what you meant. You are correct that it is more than simple "accusations". I was only trying to convey that the dynamics of the conflict in Afghanistan and FATA remain, ethnically, very much Pashtun. Karzai is a Pashtun, accusing other Pashtun, in Pakistan, of undermining his nation. The Taliban movement remains a predominantly Pashtun movement, from an ethnic standpoint, and the majority of the damage being done here is to the Pashtun by Pashtun.

S-2

I'm suggesting that the Afghani taliban have received aid and comfort since 2002 from the same Pakistani communities of afghan refugees/expatriates as their mujhideen predecessors did before them