New Borders of ME and Pakistan - Page 3

Adux · 12-19-2007, 16:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

\. Most of the explosives being used in the suicide bombings in Pakistan are of Russian or Central Asian origin. Pakistan sure as heck doesn't have very much of a weapons trade with Russia.
.

Absolutely not the truth, most of the are chinese made and are of Russian Orgin not Russian Supplied. The flow was from China to Pakistan and passed on to Taliban. And the border towns where they make NORINCO duplicates of all Russian Orgin guns. ISI and sympathizers in the border areas are the main supporters both monetary, training and weapons for the Taliban.

Agnostic Muslim · 12-19-2007, 16:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

Lets start from Economic Size, GDP reserves, to growth rates in comparison with inflation rates, No Pakistan is not an economical equal anywhere close for that matter to India. Pakistan is called a failed state for more than reasons than just 'it is not a democracy.

Lets have a talk on Defence, Education, Trade, Future Growth, Space, Poverty eradication. No Pakistan is not an equal. As I write this, I am listening to a guy in CNN talk about the how dynamic Indian Economy is, and how it is the fastest celluar market in the world.

Lack of Cohesion and National Unity, How many soldiers and para-military has deserted in the last 4 months. who controls the Northern Areas, Waziristan and FATA. Swat was with Insurgents till last week. You can put mud in your eyes as much as you want. Pakistan is at a cross-roads, socio-economic indicators is not the reason it is at the place it is now.

So in your opinion a country can only be a "non failed state" if it has the dynamics of a billion plus people and almost double digit growth. There are a lot of developing countries in the world that don't even come close to Pakistan, let alone the "Indian Standard".

Pakistan's GDP growth rate, at approx 7 percent for the past few years, while not as high as China or India, is still remarkably good. And I specifically mentioned GDP PPP since a direct comparison of a billion plus people economy with a 150 million people economy is not apt. On GDP PPP, we are pretty close. Defence and Space are frivolous arguments for determining "failed states" - they may be of more use for "regional power" status perhaps. But a viable state needs to be continuously improving its socio-economic indicators.

Poverty reduction in Pakistan has only been a percentage point or couple behind that of India, and in the last 8 years literacy rates have almost doubled. Hardly a failed state.

Agnostic Muslim · 12-19-2007, 16:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

Absolutely not the truth, most of the are chinese made and are of Russian Orgin not Russian Supplied. The flow was from China to Pakistan and passed on to Taliban. And the border towns where they make NORINCO duplicates of all Russian Orgin guns. ISI and sympathizers in the border areas are the main supporters both monetary, training and weapons for the Taliban.

Sources?

Agnostic Muslim · 12-19-2007, 16:33 PM

Afghan opium exports make up half of GDP’

* UN says of $4 billion trade, only one billion goes to farmers

VIENNA: The value of Afghanistan’s smuggled opium exports is equivalent to more than half of its gross domestic product, the UN Office on Drugs and Crime said Friday.

Aside from 19th-century China, “no other country in the world has ever produced narcotics on such a deadly scale,” the Vienna-based organisation said in a statement upon publication of its 2007 Afghan Opium Survey. UNODC chief Antonio Maria Costa said it was in the interest of Western forces battling the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan to intervene to smash the illicit trade.

“Opium is now equivalent to more than half (53 percent) of the country’s licit GDP,” the UNODC said in its report. The total value of opium and heroin exports to neighbouring countries was four billion dollars in 2007, up 29 percent from the previous year, while GDP for 2007 was 7.5 billion dollars, according to the Afghan government, it said. In 2006, opiate exports from the country were worth 3.1 billion dollars, or 45 percent of GDP, the report added.

Farmers’ share: It noted that about one billion dollars went to the farmers, while the rest went to district officials, insurgents and warlords who “control the business of producing and distributing the drugs” and drug traffickers. The amount of land used for opium poppy cultivation increased by 17 percent in 2007, while production went up 34 percent, the UNODC report also said,

It noted however that while opium cultivation was on the rise in the southwest of the country, a growing number of provinces in northern Afghanistan were becoming opium-free. “The Afghan opium situation looks grim, but it is not yet hopeless,” Costa said in the report. The UNODC calculated that Afghan traffickers made 1.7 billion dollars by exporting opium, up 1.2 billion in 2006, and 2.3 billion by exporting its derivatives heroin and morphine.

The value of the drugs increases “with every border crossing” and so “the potential windfall for criminals, insurgents and terrorists is staggering and runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars,” Costa said upon publication of the report. afp

Adux · 12-19-2007, 16:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

So in your opinion a country can only be a "non failed state" if it has the dynamics of a billion plus people and almost double digit growth. There are a lot of developing countries in the world that don't even come close to Pakistan, let alone the "Indian Standard".

Pakistan's GDP growth rate, at approx 7 percent for the past few years, while not as high as China or India, is still remarkably good. And I specifically mentioned GDP PPP since a direct comparison of a billion plus people economy with a 150 million people economy is not apt. On GDP PPP, we are pretty close. Defence and Space are frivolous arguments for determining "failed states" - they may be of more use for "regional power" status perhaps. But a viable state needs to be continuously improving its socio-economic indicators.

Poverty reduction in Pakistan has only been a percentage point or couple behind that of India, and in the last 8 years literacy rates have almost doubled. Hardly a failed state.

GDP growth rate at 7%, ok what is your inflation. What about your National Debt.
What is the real investment coming into the country other than the American aid package.
Pakistan is called failed nation for a whole lot of other reasons. And you are argument that India and Pakistan can be equated by economic terms, itself shows how unaware you are of economics. Let's not even begin with the socio-economic indicators, just because GDP PPP is the same, so is Sri Lanka better than India and Pakistan.The Sheer size of Indian Economy over-whelms Pakistan, that is not because of population size alone is it. Defence is eating up all your funds ear-marked for Eduation and social development.

I am not going to sit here and defend the obivious, just because you are nationlist jingo, therefore cant accept the truth.

I will take 2 truck loads of salt before I before I believe anything Musharraf and co brings out, just like his book.

Adux · 12-19-2007, 16:48 PM

AM,

Use the internet, Google.

Quote:

Taleban 'getting Chinese arms'
By Paul Danahar
BBC Asia bureau chief, Beijing

A large number of British troops are based in Afghanistan
Britain has privately complained to Beijing that Chinese-made weapons are being used by the Taleban to attack British troops in Afghanistan.

The BBC has been told that on several occasions Chinese arms have been recovered after attacks on British and American troops by Afghan insurgents.

The authorities in Beijing have promised to carry out an investigation.

This appears to be the first time Britain has asked China how its arms are ending up with the Taleban.

Boasting

At a meeting held recently at the Chinese foreign ministry in Beijing, a British official expressed the UK's growing concern about the incidents.

When asked about the latest British concerns, the Chinese foreign ministry referred back to a statement made by their spokesman Qin Gang in July who said China's arms exports were carried out "in strict accordance with our law and our international obligations".

For their part, the Taleban have recently begun boasting that they have now got hold of much more sophisticated weaponry although they refused to say from where.

Afghan officials have also privately confirmed to the BBC that sophisticated Chinese weapons are now in the hands of the Taleban.

Taleban forces fled Kabul in 2001

They said these included Chinese-made surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft guns, landmines, rocket-propelled grenades and components for roadside bombs.

A senior Afghan official told the BBC: "Chinese HN-5 anti-aircraft missiles are with the Taleban, we know this... and we are worried where do the Taleban get them, some of these weapons have been made recently in Chinese factories."

Another Afghan official who deals with counter-terrorism said: "Serial numbers and other information from most of the Chinese weapons have been removed in most cases and it's almost impossible for us to find out where they come from but we have shared our concerns with the Chinese and the Americans also."

Worried

The Afghan government considers China to be a friend, and a much less meddlesome ally than the other big player in its neighbourhood, India.

But, the counter-terrorism official added, "China is worried about the presence of the US in the region".

Southern Afghanistan has been awash with Chinese made arms for decades which are some of the cheapest on the market.

In the past the Taleban got them via the Pakistan intelligence agency, the ISI, or bought them directly from arms smugglers.

But it is extremely unlikely the ISI would now allow them access to anti-aircraft missiles or armour-piercing ammunition.

Taleban regularly target foreign troops in Afghanistan

The Pakistani army's relationship between militants in its tribal areas along the Afghan border has deteriorated sharply in recent years after Washington put pressure on President Musharraf post-9/11 to crack down on al-Qaeda and Taleban groups operating inside Pakistani territory.

So the Taleban might well use any sophisticated new weapons it received against the Pakistani army.

It is not in China's interest either to arm Pakistan-based militants.

Over the last couple of years Chinese workers in Pakistan have been targeted by militants, in retaliation for the Pakistani army allegedly going after hard-line Muslim Uighur leaders from China's Xinjiang province, hiding in the tribal areas.

Proxy network

So instead of Pakistan being the transit point for these weapons, the finger is being pointed by many commentators towards Iran.

The Afghan government has long acknowledged privately that Iranian intelligence agencies have been active in southern Afghanistan post-9/11.

Iran has been pursuing a policy of building up proxy networks to be able to attack American forces in response to any US attacks against Teheran's nuclear infrastructure.

The Americans are suspicious of Iran's role in Afghanistan

A Shia Iran and the Sunni Taleban had been firm enemies since 1998.

Then, Iran threatened to invade western Afghanistan, when the country was largely controlled by the Taleban, after nine of its diplomats were massacred in Mazar-e-Sharif.

But times have changed, now America is a common enemy and senior American commanders in Afghanistan have acknowledged the growing ties between the two.

The complication for both the UK and US is China.

Unnamed US officials have recently been quoted as saying that China has been selling arms to Iran which Iran is then passing on to insurgent groups in Afghanistan and Iraq.

China's booming economy and its seat at the UN security council have made it an important player on the world stage.

It is a major trading partner for the UK whose economy has benefited enormously from China's cheap goods.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown's newly-appointed British Minister for Asia, Lord Mark Malloch Brown acknowledged to journalists in Beijing last week that countries "need to work with China to get things done in today's world".

China is going to have to show that getting things done also means stopping its arms illegally ending up in the hands of men bent on killing British troops.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Taleban 'getting Chinese arms'

Pakistan has played dirty politics for far too long, that too for other's benefits. the only people who are suffering are pakistani's. Pakistan is the training ground terrorism promoted by the shiekhs of middle east, all the while thier countries are safe and developing nice, all with eastern european prosititution. If anybody is using Pakistan, it is not America or the west. But rather China and middle eastern countries

Cactus · 12-19-2007, 16:51 PM

Adux,

Hold off on the Indo-Pak Eternal War Round N for a while, I would hate to see the thread locked before we sort this out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

A rant indeed, since you still refuse to detail the reasoning behind your arguments. I made no claims of "insider knowledge", but merely made arguments based on my experiences from living in a country and interacting with the communities in question...

Also I have some interesting observations from an American serviceman with recent experience in A'stan, as well as extensive and official travel in P'stan. But rather than post anecdotal reference, I am trying to find out if there are similar observations published online from others. We may yet have some fun

PS: Feel free to keep him engaged with dispassionate discussions like the one on Chinese arms proxied to Telebunnies from P'stan etc.

Agnostic Muslim · 12-19-2007, 16:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

GDP growth rate at 7%, ok what is your inflation. What about your National Debt.
What is the real investment coming into the country other than the American aid package.
Pakistan is called failed nation for a whole lot of other reasons. And you are argument that India and Pakistan can be equated by economic terms, itself shows how unaware you are of economics. Let's not even begin with the socio-economic indicators, just because GDP PPP is the same, so is Sri Lanka better than India and Pakistan.The Sheer size of Indian Economy over-whelms Pakistan, that is not because of population size alone is it. Defence is eating up all your funds ear-marked for Eduation and social development.

I will take 2 truck loads of salt before I before I believe anything Musharraf and co brings out, just like his book.

I said "socio-economic indicators" - and I have mentioned which ones. At no point did I suggest that Sri lanka was better or Pakistan was better, so calm down!

Quote:

I am not going to sit here and defend the obivious, just because you are nationlist jingo, therefore cant accept the truth.

Of course, and you so obviously are not, and have nothing but love for Pakistan.

That is perfectly fine Adux. You want a comparison on your own terms - I am suggesting one on socio-economic indicators, simply to establish what exactly makes Pakistan a failed state relative to India, issued by various international institutions. On all of those, India and Pakistan are close, at no point does that imply one being better than the other, indeed there is a lot of improvement for both sides to do. It does indicate that you have to find something other than socio-economic indicators to substantiate your argument.

Adux · 12-19-2007, 17:05 PM

AN,

For the last time, Rs.16 will buy you a Kilogram of Sugar in India, while you need Rs.39 in Pakistan. Socio-Economic indicator argument is not going to work with me, because that is not the only criteria on which Pakistan was judged a Failed state. And I am out of this thread. Maybe the military proffessionals with experience in the region can give you a more consice and mature response, While I cannot do that.

S-2 · 12-19-2007, 17:07 PM

"Of course not, thats why the Taliban were able to capture how many districts was it and for how many weeks? Two Thousand Taliban in Musa Qala, and you captured and killed how many?"

You don't want to go there, stud. Bluntly, Americans fight. Pakistanis surrender. In fact, I believe there are a few threads on PDF that closely detail the specifics on the Pakistani Army's latest surrenders. Few anywhere are impressed by Pakistan's de facto abdication of sovereignty along it's borders, to include many of your fellow Pakistani posters. At least that seems so when comfortably discussing FATAland with the "homeboys".

That said, it seems reasonable and fair to presume that Pakistan doesn't really WANT to govern these regions. Peters has taken that implied policy and visualized it appropriately.

"And the fact remains that the source for the drugs is the poppy, which Pakistan has "miraculously" eliminated within its territory, but the US allows to grow to 54 percent of Afghan GDP. Cut the poppy crop (and the poppycock), and you wont have to worry about the drug labs."

"Miraculously" eliminate your labs. Your own data displays where the dollars go. Value-adding occurs in Pakistan, not Afghanistan.

"The Pakistan Army seems to believe the weapons the BLA uses, and where its leaders find refuge (Marri allegedly killed in Afghanistan) is in Afghanistan. So perhaps the truth is that like the Tribes, the weapons also flow back and forth."

There's no comparison to the infrastructural assistance available to the Taliban on Pakistan's side of the border. Sorry, Agnostic Muslim, but your dissemblance only diffuses stark reality for so long.

Don't like smiley faces to mitigate harsh truths? Fair enough. Use your own words and we'll build from there-

"The only difference between India and Pakistan at this point is our lack of a democratic system, and we will see how that works out."

Massive. How many coups? From that, all else logically trails. I understand emergency rule has been lifted. That's good. We'll indeed "see how that works out".

S-2 · 12-19-2007, 17:14 PM

"I would hate to see the thread locked before we sort this out..."

Not even close. Agnostic Muslim is a good poster. His arguments as a nationalist are lucid and polite. He feels good about his nation prospects.

I'm not sold but that's o.k. I don't live there.

Agnostic Muslim · 12-19-2007, 17:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

"Of course not, thats why the Taliban were able to capture how many districts was it and for how many weeks? Two Thousand Taliban in Musa Qala, and you captured and killed how many?"

You don't want to go there, stud. Bluntly, Americans fight. Pakistanis surrender. In fact, I believe there are a few threads on PDF that closely detail the specifics on the Pakistani Army's latest surrenders. Few anywhere are impressed by Pakistan's de facto abdication of sovereignty along it's borders, to include many of your fellow Pakistani posters. At least that seems so when comfortably discussing FATAland with the "homeboys".

I am not questioning the American capacity to fight, nor the pathetic performance from teh PA in FATA, butpointing out that even with that fighting capacity and technology, you cannot eliminate the Taliban, nor prevent them from occupying territory after you leave - there are simply not that many well trained and equipped forces available to NATO, and definitely not to the PA with its heavy reliance on the FC. With those flaws, its impossible to claim that "you have the Taliban completely controlled on your side".

Quote:

That said, it seems reasonable and fair to presume that Pakistan doesn't really WANT to govern these regions. Peters has taken that implied policy and visualized it appropriately.

Pakistan does not want the headache of fighting in FATA, but they have drawn a line beyond that, as evidenced in Swat. As I mentioned before, Peters plan will do nothing - the tribes will always want to retain their autonomy and medieval customs. To force them to change is just asking for more trouble. The process has to be gradual, and can work, as I said is seen in the "settled tribal areas".

Quote:

"Miraculously" eliminate your labs. Your own data displays where the dollars go. Value-adding occurs in Pakistan, not Afghanistan.

The labs will go once the raw product vanishes. That same argument suggests that the US is responsible for the majority of the drugs in South America, since the consumption there drives supply. I am sure the GoP can offer help on how they managed to eradicate the poppy crop if NATO were to ask.

Quote:

There's no comparison to the infrastructural assistance available to the Taliban on Pakistan's side of the border. Sorry, Agnostic Muslim, but your dissemblance only diffuses stark reality for so long.

Don't like smiley faces to mitigate harsh truths? Fair enough. Use your own words and we'll build from there-

Massive. How many coups? From that, all else logically trails. I understand emergency rule has been lifted. That's good. We'll indeed "see how that works out".

We will see indeed. I really see no point in taking this further with you. Have a good life.

S-2 · 12-19-2007, 17:41 PM

"I really see no point in taking this further with you."

That's fine. Just so you continue to take it further here. Cactus, for certain, is hoping that you'll hang around. I do too.

"Have a good life."

One day at a time. Thanks for the chat.

Ray · 12-19-2007, 21:02 PM

[quote=S-2;439443]Brigadier,

Quote:

You fail to acknowledge that Kurdistan's independance may be presented to the rest of mankind as a fait accompli arising from no other available option for Iraqi Kurds. That said, you've yet to suggest why a Kurdistan need threaten any adjoining nation. Further, sir, you've yet to indicate why a Kurdistan wouldn't be a net contributor to the region's economic vitality.

S2,

Kurdistan will not threaten any neighbour. It is the neighbours who will threaten Kurdistan.

Kurdistan, if it comes into being, will naturally arouse the ethnic aspiration of the Kurds in Turkey, Iran and Syria.

Obviously, that will not be appreciated by these countries.

Therefore, these countries will put all obstacles in the way to make it difficult for Kurdistan to exist.

Being landlocked and if overflight facilities are not granted, then Kurdistan will have to go over Armenia and everything including oil cannot be sent out by air!

I don't see any transit facilities being given or an oil pipeline passing through the countries of Iraq, Syria or Turkey.

Quote:

"One of the issues that anyone wanting to create a country out of another should remember is that it has access to the Ocean."

Land-locked? Ocean access? You mean like Switzerland? I don't see it as critical with good neighbors. Don't forget though, Brigadier, that Kurdistan may have no choice but independance without nat'l reconciliation within Iraq.

Switzerland cannot be compared with Kurdistan since it has no problems with its neighbours.

Ray · 12-19-2007, 21:30 PM

[quote=Agnostic Muslim;439554]

Quote:

Pakistan does not want the headache of fighting in FATA, but they have drawn a line beyond that, as evidenced in Swat. As I mentioned before, Peters plan will do nothing - the tribes will always want to retain their autonomy and medieval customs. To force them to change is just asking for more trouble. The process has to be gradual, and can work, as I said is seen in the "settled tribal areas"

.

Agnostic Muslim,

Quote:

Muslim World Today

Friday, November 30, 2007

In The Name Of The God

Is the fresh Shia-Sunni violence an Al Qaeda ploy to divert the attention of the Pakistan army from its on-going operations against the jihadis in the Swat Valley?

By B. Raman
"Al Qaeda is trying to replicate Iraq in Pakistan by exacerbating the already existing divide between the Shias and the Sunnis in the civil society as well as in the Army."

Till 1977, the Shias were in a preponderant majority in the Kurram Agency in Pakistan's Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) on its border with Afghanistan and in the Northern Areas (Gilgit and Baltistan) of Jammu and Kashmir, which is presently under Pakistani occupation.

After the triumph of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in February, 1979, there was a radicalisation of the Shias of these areas. They started demanding the creation of a separate Shia majority province to be called the Karakoram Province, consisting of the Kurram Agency, the Northern Areas and other contiguous Shia majority areas. The leadership of this movement came mainly from the Turi tribe of the Kurram Agency. The movement was allegedly funded by the Iranian intelligence.

Gen. Zia-ul-Haq put down this movement ruthlessly. He also started a policy of re-settling the Sunnis in these areas in order to control the Shias and dilute their preponderant majority. While Sunni ex-servicemen from other parts of Pakistan were re-settled in the Northern Areas, Afghan Sunni refugees from the refugee camps were re-settled in the Kurram Agency. This led to widespread resentment among the Shias against the Government as well as the Sunni settlers. The Iraqi intelligence too allegedly funded these Sunni settlers in the Kurram Agency to enable them to fight the radical Shias.

There were serious riots in Gilgit in 1988 which were ruthlessly put down by Zia with the help of a combined force of Sunni tribals and Arabs led by Osama bin Laden. Hundreds of Shias were killed. It is generally believed that the anger caused by this massacre contributed to the death of Zia-ul-Haq in a plane crash in August 1988. Enquiries into the crash reportedly brought out that the crash took place when a Shia airman belonging to Gilgit released tear-smoke or some other gas in the cockpit, thereby disorienting the crew.

The Kurram Agency has also been the scene of frequent Shia-Sunni clashes, with most of the attacks by the Shias directed against the Afghan and Pakistani Sunni settlers brought in by Zia. There were three major Shia-Sunni clashes in the Agency in 1983, 1988 and 1996, which resulted in the deaths of a total of 1,200 persons belonging to both the sects.

There was a recrudescence of the violence in April, 2007, after a gap of 11 years. For nearly three weeks from April 6, 2007,the Kurram Agency became the scene of a no-holds barred jihad waged by the local Shias and Sunnis against each other following an incident of firing allegedly by the Shias on a procession taken out by the Sunnis to mark the Holy Prophet's birthday.

The local adherents of the two sects of Islam used not only small arms and ammunition, but also mortars and rocket-launchers against each other, resulting in heavy casualties. The clashes initially started in Parachinar, the capital of the Agency. It then spread to the interior areas. The imposition of a curfew by the Pakistani authorities and severe action against the local leaders and volunteers of the two sects ultimately restored an uneasy normalcy. The Pakistan Army extensively used helicopter gunships to put down the violence.

There were conflicting figures of the fatalities inflicted by the two sects against each other and by the security forces on the warring sects. While the Pakistani authorities estimated the total number of fatalities as around 50, non-Governmental sources estimated that at least 80 persons died in the violence.

During the clashes of April,2007, the local leaders of the two sects accused the Pakistani Army of siding with the other sect. Some Sunni leaders also accused Iran of fomenting the Shia attacks against the Sunnis in order to teach Pakistan a lesson for allegedly allowing the USA's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to use the Pakistani territory for destabilisation operations against Iran.

Addressing the media at the Peshawar Press Club on April 9, 2007, Mast Gul, a Sunni jihadi leader, alleged that since April 6,2007, Shias had killed hundreds of innocent Sunnis. According to him, just on one day about 28 Sunni women and children were slaughtered in the Kurram Agency.He accused Iran of providing financial resources and weapons to the Shias in the Agency. He also alleged that Iran had given shelter to Baloch nationalist leaders and was helping them. He warned the Pakistan Army that if it did not take effective action against the Shias, he would appeal to the Sunnis in the other parts of Pakistan and in Jammu and Kashmir to come to Kurram and help the local Sunnis.

Mast Gul used to belong to the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM), which is a founding member of Osama bin Laden's International Islamic Front (IIF) formed in 1998. He used to operate in J&K till 1995. He and his followers were responsible for the burning down of the Islamic holy shrine at Charar-e-Sharief in J&K in 1995.

Since violence instigated by Al Qaeda and pro-Al Qaeda Sunni tribal elements escalated in South and North Waziristan in October,2007, there were reports of fresh tension in the Kurram Agency in the wake of reports that the jihadi terrorists loyal to Osama bin Laden were targeting the Shia members of the Frontier Constabulary and the Frontier Corps deployed in these two Agencies. It was alleged that while the terrorists brutally killed the captured Shia soldiers, they let free the Sunnis.

Some of the Shias beheaded by the terrorists belonged to the predominantly Shia tribe of Turis in the Kurram Agency.Some Shia leaders of the civil society in these two agencies were also targeted by pro-Al Qaeda elements and killed.

These incidents have led to a fresh outbreak of violence between the Shias and the Sunnis in the Kurram Agency since the night of November 15,2007. Despite the imposition of a curfew by the Pakistani authorities and the use of helicopter gunships to quell the riots, violence continued for the fourth consecutive day on November 19, 2007. It has been reported that the fighting has been more fierce than in April, 2007, and that about 100 persons, including 11 members of the para-military forces, have already died in the violence.

Police sources suspect that the fresh violence has been engineered by Al Qaeda in order to divert the attention of the Pakistan army from its on-going operations against the jihadis in the Swat Valley.

(B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai.)

Copyright © 2007 Muslim World Today

Muslim World Today: Front Page 11162007

Isn't Swat, Dir, Chitral also Shia predominant?

If so, then wouldn't it be easier to draw the line beyond which the limit would be taken as crossed and the PA better poised emotionally to take them on seriously and thus effectively, they being Shias and given the above commentary?

Do be around since your posts are very informative and thought provoking.

12-19-2007, 17:07 PM	#40 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,110 Country:	Agnostic Muslim Reply "Of course not, thats why the Taliban were able to capture how many districts was it and for how many weeks? Two Thousand Taliban in Musa Qala, and you captured and killed how many?" You don't want to go there, stud. Bluntly, Americans fight. Pakistanis surrender. In fact, I believe there are a few threads on PDF that closely detail the specifics on the Pakistani Army's latest surrenders. Few anywhere are impressed by Pakistan's de facto abdication of sovereignty along it's borders, to include many of your fellow Pakistani posters. At least that seems so when comfortably discussing FATAland with the "homeboys". That said, it seems reasonable and fair to presume that Pakistan doesn't really WANT to govern these regions. Peters has taken that implied policy and visualized it appropriately. "And the fact remains that the source for the drugs is the poppy, which Pakistan has "miraculously" eliminated within its territory, but the US allows to grow to 54 percent of Afghan GDP. Cut the poppy crop (and the poppycock), and you wont have to worry about the drug labs." "Miraculously" eliminate your labs. Your own data displays where the dollars go. Value-adding occurs in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. "The Pakistan Army seems to believe the weapons the BLA uses, and where its leaders find refuge (Marri allegedly killed in Afghanistan) is in Afghanistan. So perhaps the truth is that like the Tribes, the weapons also flow back and forth." There's no comparison to the infrastructural assistance available to the Taliban on Pakistan's side of the border. Sorry, Agnostic Muslim, but your dissemblance only diffuses stark reality for so long. Don't like smiley faces to mitigate harsh truths? Fair enough. Use your own words and we'll build from there- "The only difference between India and Pakistan at this point is our lack of a democratic system, and we will see how that works out." Massive. How many coups? From that, all else logically trails. I understand emergency rule has been lifted. That's good. We'll indeed "see how that works out". __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

12-19-2007, 17:14 PM	#41 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,110 Country:	Cactus Reply "I would hate to see the thread locked before we sort this out..." Not even close. Agnostic Muslim is a good poster. His arguments as a nationalist are lucid and polite. He feels good about his nation prospects. I'm not sold but that's o.k. I don't live there.

12-19-2007, 17:41 PM	#43 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,110 Country:	Agnostic Reply "I really see no point in taking this further with you." That's fine. Just so you continue to take it further here. Cactus, for certain, is hoping that you'll hang around. I do too. "Have a good life." One day at a time. Thanks for the chat.

12-19-2007, 16:33 PM	#34 (permalink)
Agnostic Muslim Contributor Join Date: 12-12-07 Location: Auburn Hills Posts: 461 Country:	Afghan opium exports make up half of GDP’ * UN says of $4 billion trade, only one billion goes to farmers VIENNA: The value of Afghanistan’s smuggled opium exports is equivalent to more than half of its gross domestic product, the UN Office on Drugs and Crime said Friday. Aside from 19th-century China, “no other country in the world has ever produced narcotics on such a deadly scale,” the Vienna-based organisation said in a statement upon publication of its 2007 Afghan Opium Survey. UNODC chief Antonio Maria Costa said it was in the interest of Western forces battling the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan to intervene to smash the illicit trade. “Opium is now equivalent to more than half (53 percent) of the country’s licit GDP,” the UNODC said in its report. The total value of opium and heroin exports to neighbouring countries was four billion dollars in 2007, up 29 percent from the previous year, while GDP for 2007 was 7.5 billion dollars, according to the Afghan government, it said. In 2006, opiate exports from the country were worth 3.1 billion dollars, or 45 percent of GDP, the report added. Farmers’ share: It noted that about one billion dollars went to the farmers, while the rest went to district officials, insurgents and warlords who “control the business of producing and distributing the drugs” and drug traffickers. The amount of land used for opium poppy cultivation increased by 17 percent in 2007, while production went up 34 percent, the UNODC report also said, It noted however that while opium cultivation was on the rise in the southwest of the country, a growing number of provinces in northern Afghanistan were becoming opium-free. “The Afghan opium situation looks grim, but it is not yet hopeless,” Costa said in the report. The UNODC calculated that Afghan traffickers made 1.7 billion dollars by exporting opium, up 1.2 billion in 2006, and 2.3 billion by exporting its derivatives heroin and morphine. The value of the drugs increases “with every border crossing” and so “the potential windfall for criminals, insurgents and terrorists is staggering and runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars,” Costa said upon publication of the report. afp

12-19-2007, 17:05 PM	#39 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	AN, For the last time, Rs.16 will buy you a Kilogram of Sugar in India, while you need Rs.39 in Pakistan. Socio-Economic indicator argument is not going to work with me, because that is not the only criteria on which Pakistan was judged a Failed state. And I am out of this thread. Maybe the military proffessionals with experience in the region can give you a more consice and mature response, While I cannot do that.