Officer of Engineers

No, you don't. Don't insult us by pretending you do.

A lame answer.

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Chimo

wangrui961

It's hard to say who is right ,I will hold on my viewpoint.
Officer is a stick man and good at prevail others, but I think is a huge project to change my oppnion

Goatboy

No. I don't care how important "territory" is to China, that's an excuse that's been used by many expansionist nations thoughout history and it doesn't hold any water with me.

If increasing China's territory is THAT important to it, then China's got a big selfish, moral dilemma, for it must then choose between the desire for more territory, or increasing liberty (which exists in all humans) for Chinese as a whole. Chinese culture won't suddenly cease to exist because Taiwan decides it wants to be independent.

Should a PRC desire for more territory trump the collective view of 20 million Taiwanese? Taiwan's been amazingly successful economically, just like Hong Kong, just like Macau, just like Singapore perhaps! So they're certainly not a failed state, and if they don't feel like merging with China, then TOO BAD for China, and actually, too bad for Canada if Quebec separates too! The point here is to "put the gun down", and quit threatening Taiwan with violence if the population doesn't "conform".

Just because you say that "Most Chinese, old and young" would be willing to fight to bring Taiwan back under PRC control DOES NOT make it right to use force to subdue a Chinese speaking country (Taiwan) which for the past 50 years has been vastly more successful than China economically, and incorporate it into China. Right DOES NOT make right in this case

astralis

goatboy,

you're looking at it from the wrong angle. for mainland chinese, taiwan is not so important all by itself- it is about reversing what in chinese is termed the "century of humiliation", starting with first opium war. for them, the fact that taiwan is not part of the motherland isn't born out of some desire for territory, but in upholding their dignity and self-worth as a nation.

and humans are willing to sacrifice their lives for these ideals. not saying it is always good or always right, but that is reality.

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

astralis

armchair general,

that's because in a place with such a huge population, it's one way of establishing whom one is as an individual. in old times (imperial dynasties) one had a birth name, to be used with intimate family and friends (equivalent to a nickname). then one had a "grown-up"/"official" name. if you were part of the small educated class, then you got a literary name (equivalent to a pen-name). and if one did something dramatically important for the state, then you got an honorary name too (equivalent to the Lord whatevers in england).

these days you get a name, and a nickname (although to simplify things still further, the nickname is usually based off your official name, instead of a completely different name altogether as it used to be). thus chen shui-bian's nickname in taiwan is "ah-bian", with "ah" having the same effect as saying "jimmy" instead of "james".

it's not helped by the fact that taiwan uses an older system of transliteration, wade-giles; the PRC uses pinyin. then cantonese has their own way of transliteration. btw, it's not just pronounciation that's different, it's also word usage etc etc. it blurs the boundary between seperate languages. although i can tell you right now as a mandarin speaker that me understanding cantonese is somewhat akin to an english speaker understanding german. by the way, pronounciations don't change- they haven't changed in quite a long time. mandarin, for hundreds if not thousands of years, still uses its 4 tones and cantonese its 9 (!).

you forget that china's land area is almost as big as all europe's (including european russia). look how many frikkin' languages there are, not to mention names, in europe. damn barbarians.

wangrui961

Mr jiang took a lot form the mainland to Taiwan , so don't say the "successful",don't comepare to SK ,HK etc.
And 10 years later ,you will find which is more successiful .
I hope Taiwan people live a good life , but independece means war,you can choose to fight to die for Taiwan's independece as you want ,and i will fight for bringing Taiwan back,that's all.

astralis

that has got to be the most brainless statement you've made since coming here.

obviously you've never been to taiwan...and obviously you've never been to most of china, either.

Goatboy

But China has rectified its honor, or it should feel that way at least. It's free now, free and sovereign, and has been for half a century. I don't think China's need for more "self worth" is any excuse for an invasion of Taiwan (who love their democracy and would fight like demons to protect it).

In my opinion (and I know many will disagree here), "what China wants" regarding Taiwan is irrelevent ethically speaking. Taiwan has earned the right to decide for itself what it wants no matter how badly China "wants it back".

Of course I'm not advocating Taiwan declare independence yet since China insists on bullying and threats. I still sense a great deal of "immaturity" in how China engages Taiwan. You're right then, China does still have a sore spot from the last century

astralis

goatboy,

rationality doesn't play a huge part when talking about nationalism. there are historical overtones involved here that raise passions. from the chinese point of view, taiwan has been china's since the qing dynasty (and indirectly colonized for hundreds of years before that: for example, my dad's side of the family moved from china to taiwan in the early 1600s, prior to the qing).

one of the last ming loyalists (so he proclaimed himself, anyway), koxinga, fled to taiwan a la chiang kai-shek, and kept HIS empire going there until the qing finally crushed him.

and then came japan's colonization of taiwan following the highly traumatic sino-japanese war of 1894-5, which was particularly humiliating for chinese as they (and to be fair, most of the world) thought this was one country whom they could easily defeat.

so yeah, talk about carrying emotional baggage.

as for the taiwanese, no one (including themselves) is quite sure HOW they will exactly act. i personally think if the PRC carried out an unprovoked invasion (unlikely chance), the taiwanese will certainly fight like demons. if, however, a conflict was provoked by the greens (and even they are not that crazy), then things become a lot murkier.

----

i've uploaded some polls which were taken some while back (april 7, 2005) of taiwanese college students (1161 of them across the island). this caused some uproar in taiwan when they were published. i'll translate:

Poll 1: If the CCP were to attack Taiwan, would you want to defend the homeland?

Yes: 35%
No: 65%

Poll 2: Why would you not want to fight on the frontline?

I'm female, I don't like fighting: 22.8%
Taiwan is no match for the mainland: 30.5%
If we fight I'll just be cannon fodder: 25.6%
If there's going to be a fight, I'd rather re-unify with the mainland: 12.2%

Poll 3: If the CCP does attack Taiwan, what would your reaction be?

Raise the white flag and surrender: 18.1%
Wait to die: 19.2%
Wait for the US/other countries to save us: 21.9%
Resist to the end: 28.6%
Other

as you see...taiwanese independence is not exactly something most young taiwanese are willing to fight and die for. for their homes in an unprovoked attack, they certainly would, but for independence...that is another story.

Attached Images

	Taiwan_poll.jpg (37.4 KB, 53 views)
	Taiwan_Poll_2.jpg (36.7 KB, 52 views)
	Taiwan_Poll_3.jpg (39.4 KB, 52 views)

Goatboy

True, nationalism and rationality are not happy roommates that's for sure.

Oh yes, If China were a man, I'd recommend some therapy

I agree completely. Historical precedent does too. Iraq didn't expect to fight Iranian Sunnis after they attacked for example, despite being "brothers in blood and mind".
----

(great stuff there btw, very applicable poll info)

That sounds about right to me actually.

It is hard to say what would happen if Taiwan "drew first blood" by declaring independence: Say Taiwan's government (stupidly) declared complete independence, then China attacks. Just like the answers to the poll questions above, many Taiwanese would feel betrayed by their leadership initially. But China had better subdue the island quickly. Wreak enough destruction on Taiwan and it would galvanize support to resist I think. Like you said, it's hard to predict.

gunnut

Well, suit yourself. Your military and mine are more than happy to oblige.

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

gunnut

Astralis is right. China has made remarkable progress in the last 15 years, but there's still much to be done. There is absolutely no way China, as a nation, can catch up to Taiwan inside 10 years. Shanghai probably can. Beijing, maybe, but I won't hold my breath. The rest of China is still lagging, especially in the interior.

If you can, take a tour to Hong Kong and Taiwan. One is a model of capitalism, and the other a mixed benign dictatorship and democratic capitalism. Both are still decades ahead of China, despite the tremendous progress in recent years.

ArmchairGeneral

Fascinating. I knew some of the dialects were pretty different from each other. There's a freshman on my soccer team, he was either born in Taiwan or the mainland. My friend asked him if he spoke chinese, and he said spoke Mandarin and Cantonese. We were impressed.

p.s. Totally agree with you about Europeans. In fact, all non-Americans are pretty much barbarians. Except Canadians. They're sinister evil masterminds bent on taking us over through infiltration tactics. BUT THEY WILL NOT PREVAIL!

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Triple C

I am a die hard DPP supporter. Yet nobody in the DPP that I know of supports a formal declaration of independence because none want want war. If China wants to invade Taiwan, it will have to look for its excuses else where.

wangrui961

i have been to almost any part of China , my home is in Jiangsu , i am studing in Sichuan , i have been to Shanghai ,Shenzhen ,Hokong,beijing ,Xingjiang,Tibet etc...
taiwan ,i haven't been there .
My sister is working in Hongkong ,she has been in UK for a long time ,she doesn't think they are " decads ahead of China ",but just "decads ahead of parts of China"
where have you been to the mainland?