China vis-à-vis Taiwan - Page 11

Feanor · 01-09-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKDan

"As for dalai lama,I completely understand why you guys admire him,he's a wise spiritual leader who talks like a philosopher and you dig that. But hold on for just a second,who else is a wise spiritual leader who talks like a philosopher? I mean,what's that guy's name? Is it"Osama something"? Seriously,just because he couldn't pull off a terroist attack on one of the skyscrapers in Shanghai doesn't mean he's a f**king saint,right? If you have some knowledge of Tibetan history(which I don't think you have) or have ever been to Tibet yourself(which I don't think you have,either),you'll know what your legendary humanitarian icon really wants:good old slavery and eternal life as the ruler of Tibet."

This is one of the more offensive posts that I have ever had the misfortune to read. You just compared the Dalai Lama to Osama Bin Laden. 'Nuff said.

Having said that much,I'm actually getting a little tired of trying to reason with y'all China-bashers. We will grow even stronger (and very soon) whether you like it or not, DEAL WITH IT.

As far as I can tell from you profile this was your first post. You got tired of defending China in a real hurry. Or was this just trolling? If you want to come here and defend China from what you see as unjustified criticism please do. Im sure that you will find not all here are hostile to that idea. However, please think about what you are writing...and go introduce yourself in the new members forum.

Shoot me on the spot, but he's got a point. We don't know enough about the Tibet conflict to really know what the Dalai Lama even stands for.

HKDan · 01-09-2008, 10:43 AM

Speak for yourself. The history of the Tibet issue is out there for any who care to read it. Netzilla is referring to some of the less savory aspects of traditional Tibetan culture. Things that possibly would not exist today if Tibet had developed on its own. As for his frustration with the seemingly never ending amount of criticism that China gets, guess what? That comes as a part of being a somebody. No country of any significance does not get criticism. I still think that comparing one of the most visible pacifists of our time with Osama Bin Laden is ignorant and offensive.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Shoot me on the spot, but he's got a point. We don't know enough about the Tibet conflict to really know what the Dalai Lama even stands for.

I've provided documentation to show that the man is a racist. Under his plan, Han Chinese born and raised in Tibet have no say in Tibet and would be deported. He cites that Tibetans should determine their future and him, as their leader, would show the way. Yeah, he wants his throne back.

So, to say that we know nothing is a bit arrogant and don't know the level of China watching that some of us here have done.

Feanor · 01-09-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKDan

Speak for yourself. The history of the Tibet issue is out there for any who care to read it. Netzilla is referring to some of the less savory aspects of traditional Tibetan culture. Things that possibly would not exist today if Tibet had developed on its own. As for his frustration with the seemingly never ending amount of criticism that China gets, guess what? That comes as a part of being a somebody. No country of any significance does not get criticism. I still think that comparing one of the most visible pacifists of our time with Osama Bin Laden is ignorant and offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I've provided documentation to show that the man is a racist. Under his plan, Han Chinese born and raised in Tibet have no say in Tibet and would be deported. He cites that Tibetans should determine their future and him, as their leader, would show the way. Yeah, he wants his throne back.

So, to say that we know nothing is a bit arrogant and don't know the level of China watching that some of us here have done.

My apologies. I'll speak for myself from now on.

HKDan · 01-09-2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I've provided documentation to show that the man is a racist. Under his plan, Han Chinese born and raised in Tibet have no say in Tibet and would be deported. He cites that Tibetans should determine their future and him, as their leader, would show the way. Yeah, he wants his throne back.

Im no fan of the guy either, although I think the tone of his more recent statements are more along the lines of, "We realize China is going to run the show, we just want more religious and cultural autonomy" Caught some flack from Tibetans in exile for saying that IIRC.

zraver · 01-09-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

May lead to said larger population demanding equal "concessions."

Which is why I don't think it will happen any time soon. The risks are not worth the minor gains. The current status quo benefits both sides and i think both sides are betting they will win the economic re-unification battle. And they might be right. Once the CCP has liberalized enough and the civil service has gone from party to non-partisan and political parties form. We already see some diverging platforms inside the CCP. Monolithic faiths never stay unified, be it religion or political ideology. It is entirely possible that within 20-30 years non-CCP sub parties or neo-communist parties may hold seats on the Politburo. From there it is an easy step to open democracy.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 12:01 PM

He's never going to be a head of anything now. He's only a leader of the exiled Tibetan community, none within Tibet itself. The GPCR put to rest the idea of a living god. Mao had effectively replaced the Dali Lama as a living god and no one in China, least of all Tibet, wants to return to that kind of arrangement.

zraver · 01-09-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I've provided documentation to show that the man is a racist. Under his plan, Han Chinese born and raised in Tibet have no say in Tibet and would be deported. He cites that Tibetans should determine their future and him, as their leader, would show the way. Yeah, he wants his throne back.

So, to say that we know nothing is a bit arrogant and don't know the level of China watching that some of us here have done.

The Dali Lama might impose racist policies, the CCP has imposed racist policies. Tibetans are still fleeing to India to escape persecution. Denying Tibetans freedom based on the premise they might return the favor is hardly fair.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

The Dali Lama might impose racist policies, the CCP has imposed racist policies. Tibetans are still fleeing to India to escape persecution. Denying Tibetans freedom based on the premise they might return the favor is hardly fair.

Actually, it's the other way around. Tibetans enjoy a far greater representation in the CCP than normal Han Chinese. Han Chinese were brought in to get the local economies going until such a time that normal Tibetans can take over. That point has long been since past.

What is also not in dispute is that the Tibetan Red Guards (made up from Tibetan youths) destroyed most of Tibetan heritage. A collective denial is in place blaming Han Chinese Red Guards for the destruction.

The Red Guards were Mao's personal youth army who were to spread the word of the Little Red Book during the Great Proleterate Cultural Revolution. The Tibetans were no more immune to that great national insanity than anyone else.

My point here is that the Dali Lama will not return to Tibet. The Tibetans have long since lost their belief in living gods.

Blademaster · 01-09-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

My point here is that the Dali Lama will not return to Tibet. The Tibetans have long since lost their belief in living gods.

Sorry, over a million Tibetans living in India strongly dispute your assertion. Thousands of Tibetans are fleeing Tibet each week to India for greater religious freedom and to be close to their god, the Dalai Lama.

HKDan · 01-09-2008, 12:26 PM

OOE,
I agree with what you have to say mostly, but think that you are underestimating the strength that the Dalai Lama still has among Tibetans as a religious symbol. Not that many of them would want a return to a theocracy, but he is still a much loved figure in that part of the world. I do agree that he will never rule and that the free tibet movement is something that exists mostly in the minds of Californian vegetarians.

Ray · 01-09-2008, 12:39 PM

Colonel,

You underestimate the Dalai Lama and the western backing!

The West shall never give up Tibet since it fits into her geostrategic thinking and India is the reluctant frontline state!

We all think that the USA is a bunch of chumps. Actually, the US is clever by half!

The Dalai Lama is not a racist.

His point of view is that Tibet is for Tibetans, because in his mind, he has not accepted what he calls the Occupation of Tibet!

That point is debatable given the ground situation!

However, the Free Tibet movement worries India itself!

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Sorry, over a million Tibetans living in India strongly dispute your assertion. Thousands of Tibetans are fleeing Tibet each week to India for greater religious freedom and to be close to their god, the Dalai Lama.

And there are 10 times more than that in Tibet hocking pirated DVDs and selling TVs and raising factories. As I stated, in the battle of Hearts and Minds, both the Dali Lama and Beijing have lost out to BAYWATCH.

zraver · 01-09-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Actually, it's the other way around. Tibetans enjoy a far greater representation in the CCP than normal Han Chinese. Han Chinese were brought in to get the local economies going until such a time that normal Tibetans can take over. That point has long been since past.

Then why the continued Han migration into the area?

Quote:

What is also not in dispute is that the Tibetan Red Guards (made up from Tibetan youths) destroyed most of Tibetan heritage. A collective denial is in place blaming Han Chinese Red Guards for the destruction.

The Red Guards were Mao's personal youth army who were to spread the word of the Little Red Book during the Great Proleterate Cultural Revolution. The Tibetans were no more immune to that great national insanity than anyone else.

So the Chinese convinced impressionable youths to destroy what they didn't understand and its not the CCP's fault? You know that argument would not fly in court.

Quote:

My point here is that the Dali Lama will not return to Tibet. The Tibetans have long since lost their belief in living gods.

Over a million Tibetans disagree, and those are jsut the ones who have fled. its not like the world can get into Tibet to find out what Tibetans think. Your stating a negative that cannot be proven unless the world is given free access to Tibetans.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 13:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Then why the continued Han migration into the area?

Continued? The policies that once encourage such migration has long past. The current "migration" are businessmen looking for deals. You will find Korean and Japanese businessmen doing the same right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

So the Chinese convinced impressionable youths to destroy what they didn't understand and its not the CCP's fault? You know that argument would not fly in court.

You missed the point here. The point is the GPCR has destroyed the myth of the living god (Mao). Those impressionable youths once woken up from that nightmare will never again follow another living god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Over a million Tibetans disagree, and those are jsut the ones who have fled. its not like the world can get into Tibet to find out what Tibetans think. Your stating a negative that cannot be proven unless the world is given free access to Tibetans.

The world has got free access. The terrain, however, is not condusive to openness. The Sino-Indo border is even less defended than the American-Mexican border, mostly because terrain and weather is extremely harsh but you and I can handle it quite easily.

The one thing people are not mentioning is that the drug trade is extremely heavy, implying that for the few exceptions where the PAP and the Indian border police actually caught someone, there are hundreds more that made it through. The argument is not how many 1000s are yearning for India. The argument is why are not there more?

01-09-2008, 12:39 PM	#162 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	Colonel, You underestimate the Dalai Lama and the western backing! The West shall never give up Tibet since it fits into her geostrategic thinking and India is the reluctant frontline state! We all think that the USA is a bunch of chumps. Actually, the US is clever by half! The Dalai Lama is not a racist. His point of view is that Tibet is for Tibetans, because in his mind, he has not accepted what he calls the Occupation of Tibet! That point is debatable given the ground situation! However, the Free Tibet movement worries India itself! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by Ray : 01-09-2008 at 12:43 PM.

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01-09-2008, 10:43 AM	#152 (permalink)
HKDan Contributor Join Date: 05-23-06 Location: Hong Kong, Shanghai, Hangzhou, wherever the wife drags me Posts: 406 Country:	Speak for yourself. The history of the Tibet issue is out there for any who care to read it. Netzilla is referring to some of the less savory aspects of traditional Tibetan culture. Things that possibly would not exist today if Tibet had developed on its own. As for his frustration with the seemingly never ending amount of criticism that China gets, guess what? That comes as a part of being a somebody. No country of any significance does not get criticism. I still think that comparing one of the most visible pacifists of our time with Osama Bin Laden is ignorant and offensive.

01-09-2008, 12:01 PM	#157 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	He's never going to be a head of anything now. He's only a leader of the exiled Tibetan community, none within Tibet itself. The GPCR put to rest the idea of a living god. Mao had effectively replaced the Dali Lama as a living god and no one in China, least of all Tibet, wants to return to that kind of arrangement.

01-09-2008, 12:26 PM	#161 (permalink)
HKDan Contributor Join Date: 05-23-06 Location: Hong Kong, Shanghai, Hangzhou, wherever the wife drags me Posts: 406 Country:	OOE, I agree with what you have to say mostly, but think that you are underestimating the strength that the Dalai Lama still has among Tibetans as a religious symbol. Not that many of them would want a return to a theocracy, but he is still a much loved figure in that part of the world. I do agree that he will never rule and that the free tibet movement is something that exists mostly in the minds of Californian vegetarians.

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