Maggot

I think a lot of the expansion is solely to pick away at Russia, to grab them up before the Russians recover to consolidate them again. It's NATO's turn to make a buffer. It creates more tensions and makes a few barely armed republics next to Russia puff up their chest, but I think NATO is just happy to see the decline of their old enemy and aren't thinking about the consequences of poking the bear when he's down.

__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

rickusn

FEANOR:

"Realistically NATO expansion is weakening NATO, and given the recent chill in relations between the U.S. and many European nations this all together, in my opinion, diminishes NATOs strength as an alliance."

I dont agree here at all.

Russia or rather Putin the dictator is in fact weakening NATO with its/his constant threats.

If there is any "chill" IMHO its because of the fear caused by Russias already started economic war over energy supplies.

From my perspective relations with Europe have never been warmer especially with respect to France although the US's relations with Europe have always been complicated if not outright contentious.

If there is a "chill" in some respects Im all for it if it gets the US out of having to come rescue the Europeans from another debacle like WWI and WWII. But the exact opposite is kikey to occur just as in the past.

Patton always said we would someday we would have to fight the Russians each day Putin draws the conflict closer to reality.

Blame the US all you want for everythin wrong in th world the vast majority of US citizens have come to grips with it. Most have become hardened to outrageous, outlandish criticism and outright lies.

Not to mention the incredible(not to mention lack of credible) global anti-US propaganda machine which unfortunately is aided and abetted by a foolish, hoodwinked and uncalled for guilt feeling liberal crocodiled teared not to mention loud and shrill minority here in the US.

The vast majority of Americans dont fear Russia like the Europeans do and hopefully the US wont try appeasement to assuage Putin ruler for life of the world .

Its a losing strategy if that happens and I will fight it to the death.

Like I said if its war he and the Russians want lets do it now, right now and get it over with.

Right is right and Wrong is wrong and Putin is over the top.

Now its only a matter of what the consequences for the world will be as he has made it quite clear he will use nuclear weapons at his whim.

He does not view them as a deterrent but as a weapon to threaten with and more importantly use with impunity against any who oppose his orders and proclamations.

Look how he has ruthlessly and completely not only stifled but destroyed all dissent on pain of death(not only of the individual but his entire family and friends) in Russia. Against his own people. Stalinistic to the extreme.

What qualms would he have with nuking any other peoples out of existence??

The answer is absolutely,unequivically none.

Once again history repeats itself. Maybe for the last time , maybe not.

All the Putin/Russian supporters and apologists should make no mistake that no matter WHO is in power in the US they will retaliate in a manner that will be designed to get your attention all of it at least for a moment.

If any dont think so, they are fools and have no understanding of the American psyche irregardless of any political differences. If that has changed then this is no longer the America I was born in and then life has no meaning.

And then you will understand the error of your ways but it will be farrrrrrrrrr tooooooo late for all of us.

Ie make all the threats you want, take any action you wish.

But it doesnt matter whos fault it is too paraphrase a famous line:

"Your fault, my fault, nobodys fault ........"

or if you prefer

"do you feel lucky"

or for my favorite about my demise

"Its not about deserve."


FEANOR:

Post some documentation for your contentions and I will be willing to change my perspective.

But Im not holding my breath.

Feanor

I'm not sure I understand your arguments. You think NATO is actually weakened by Putins threats? Seems like a rather counter-intuitive conclusion. I would think NATO unity would increase in the face of a foreign opponent. The weakness I was referring to was the watering down of NATO membership, and fact that the alliance now extends to countries that really aren't very interested in helping each other in a war.

As for Euro-U.S. relations, I was referring to the chill that occured as a result of the Iraq war.

About Putin, I can agree with you to an extent. He is most certainly a negative character. However consider that he has no interest in starting a major war. The Russian military is still a mess. Much (most) of the equipment is outdated. Training standards are fairly low, and transition to a professional military is far behind schedule. Consider that even if the Russian military reforms were 100% successful, it would still be no match for the American military. The funding discrepancy alone is staggering.

World Military Spending - Global Issues

The U.S. spends, right now, 7 times as much as Russia. Consider also that all attempts at real military REFORM (not re-armament but genuine reform) have been a failure.
RUSSIAN MILITARY REFORM: TEN YEARS OF FAILURE
Russian Military Reform - CDI Russia Weekly #239
CORRUPTION UNDERMINES RUSSIAN MILITARY REFORM - Eurasia Daily Monitor

Realistically Putin is simply pursuing a populist foreign policy that will allow him to remain popular at home, despite any real economic progress (like stemming inflation) and social difficulties at home. I believe he is the figure head of a FSB-controlled regime, that in and of himself has little influence on what actually happens.

rickusn

Fear of being reconquered by Russia or annhilated by nuclear weapons by an irrational actor "Putin" is not "counter-intuitive" nor is this Russian/German alliance that strikes even more fear into the hearts of the Eastern Europeans among others.:

Rear Echelon

How in the world can Russia and Germany unilaterally build a pipeline through the center of the Baltic??????????????

Those nations are in their infancy having been virtually gutted by the Russians the US and NATO has done little for these nations compared to the funds funneled into Russia by those same nations including the US as I havve documented repeatedly over the last decade and is even now still occuring.

They well know that as much as they want and would like blanket protection by the US from the rogue state that has become Russia its only a dream far from reality.

They cant defend themselves and the US has limited means to protect them. Plus the fact that Putin has said he considers nuclear weapons not to be a deterrent but to actually use if he doesnt get his way.

Now thats "chilling" or actually far beyond.

And that stated prediliction of Putins to use nuclear weapons for any reason at any time has no motive behind it but to weaken NATO as it or any such alliance has defense against such an irrational actor that does not fear such annhilating retaliation in kind and that actor has become Putin, Russia and all his/theirs unabashed supporters and apologists of any action taken by him or Russia.

If you cant follow my so-called "arguments" its because you have an ulterior motive and a hidden agenda.

Be a man and have the guts to step into the light and be honest.

"As for Euro-U.S. relations, I was referring to the chill that occured as a result of the Iraq war.'

Then your clutching at straws as that is old news long since replaced by news like above or rapprochment with France instigated by their pragmatic, practical. realistic and above all rational President.

""Realistically Putin is simply pursuing a populist foreign policy that will allow him to remain popular at home, despite any real economic progress (like stemming inflation) and social difficulties at home. I believe he is the figure head of a FSB-controlled regime, that in and of himself has little influence on what actually happens."

BS As I have shown over and over and over.

As for military spending you have to put that in the context of what it actually buys otherwise once again your clutching at straws.

"7 times" and American wages alone are what 10 times that of Russia?????????????? Not to mention all the other factors that consume even more of the defense budget like waste, corporate profit, Executive Compensation, fraud, corruption etc etc etc.

Get real.

As usual you have nothing to contribute of substance but an opinion totally devoid of any facts or based on objective reality.

Your outlandish hatred of America and intense love of anything Russian is utterly outrageous.

My analysis is right on the mark if you disagree so be it but you have no shown no reasonable or rational basis for doing so.

Be a man and admit it.

Then we can truly have an argument.

So until you do I can only hope and pray others see can see through your charade.

But make no mistake I fear neither Russia, Putin, you or death for that matter.

And therfore Russia, Putin or you can control me which of course is your ultimate aim.

Our conversation is again at an end until you come clean.

I have respectfully asked for you not to respond to my threads for that reason and very other very cogent reasons that I see no point in reiterating.

But once again you show no signs of respect for facts, reality or me.

Why they havent banned you is beyond me.

braindead

this time I agree with Feanor . NATO has taken a commitment that it will defend East.Europe . Speaking of Baltic States we have serious problems with our mini-armys . When countries join NATO their defence spending should theoretically go DOWN , because of ´security umbrella´ , not go UP !
Only Lithuania probably has the WILL to defend it seriously , Est. and Lat. have so many people (i.e. Russians ) of questionable loyalty , and whose conscripts are even less motivated than est-s or lats.-s .
Man we are so far from Finland in our views that it is horrible . They KNOW they could give a serious resistance to anybody except US maybe . THEY have 95% of young men going to Army , it is a thing of honour and their training is quite good . They have very limited resources , but still field the (probably) biggest artillery arm in Europe . They could get in their 5 million population a mobilistation army of 500.000 . And this is already downsized version ! They have turned their country to practicly a hedgehog - small , yet cannot be bitten , unless you want your teeth full of thorn , you cannot sit on it to squash it , unless you want your ass full of same thorns .

Oh rant mode off.

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Ophir

Great, so you want the US to attack Russia now, even though Putin isn't threatening war. Why do you want another WW, rickusn?

Ophir

Sorry, I haven't seen the following.

Putin is pretty rational; as for the pipeline, it's a good and technically advanced idea.

Those nations are NATO members. The leadershipin Moscow isn't suicidal; however, popular sentiment in Russia is very much against the Baltic countries and Poland, just like their sentiment is pretty anti-Russian. The proposed pipeline is a fine idea in order to avoid future conflicts overt transporting oil through these countries.

I am far from being Putin apologist, having voted against him etc etc. However, I won't put up with your fearmongering. Russia isn't preparing a sudden nuclear attack upon anyone, Russia isn't bent on conquering the world.

Do the same, rickusn. Why do you want the US Air Force to kill me?

ZOMG... Rickusn, Feanor is anti-Putin as anyone can be. I am at a loss for words.

Feanor

I, not only have a strong dislike for the man both personally and politically, but also a strong dislike for the establishment he represents.

rickusn

And heres more:

Ive read the entire book and so much,much more.

The Consolidation of Dictatorship in Russia — www.greenwood.com

"The still-prevailing notion among Western powers, including the United States, is that Russia is a democracy, or at least that it remains in the process of democratization. Nothing could be further from the truth, as Ostrow, Satarov, and Khakamada demonstrate in The Consolidation of Dictatorship in Russia. Journalists critical of Vladimir Putin's dictatorship, such as Anna Politkovskaya, are murdered. Nearly 100 investigative journalists, an average of two per month, have been murdered since Putin took power, and not one person has been charged or convicted of those crimes. Others critical of or in opposition to Putin often meet the same fate, as in the suspicious poisoning in London of Aleksandr Litvinenko. How did Russia manage to transition from dictatorship to dictatorship, when the hopes for democracy were so great and when Western conventional wisdom assumed for so long that democracy was inevitable there?"

I wanted nothing but to be allies with Russia but Putin has ruined all hope of that.

rickusn

ophir:

I dont want the US military to kill you but Putin wants the Russian military to kill me he and other Russians have already stated such if I wont take my place under Putins planned world dictatorship.

I wont tolerate it.

Putin has threatened war and the first use of nuclear weapons at the slightest provocation or at his whim.

I said nothing about the US attacking Russia.

Only that im tired of his bullying and threats therfore he should put up or shut up.

That Im tired of the US and its allies pouring billions of $s into Russia to disamantle its nuclear submarines and clean up its nuclear mess while they continue to build new submarines and nuclear weapons nad threaten me with there use.

But if Putin, you, Feanor and Russia wants war Im willing to give him and Russia better than they can give.

My point Putin, Russia and you and Feanor better back off NOW because I will protect myself at all costs by any means.

Im unwilling to fall under his "dictatorship" or face the prospect of waiting for nuclear annhilation.

If its war he and Russia wants then lets go. Do it now and get it over with.

Or back off and apologise not just with words but concrete actions.

Feanor has never said anything critical of Putin or Russia in my prsecence in fact the exact opposite has been true.

"However, I won't put up with your fearmongering. Russia isn't preparing a sudden nuclear attack upon anyone, Russia isn't bent on conquering the world.'

BS I have documented it and proven it by Russians and Putins own words.

Actually it is I who wont put up with "your", Feanors ,Putins or Russias "fear mongering".

The German/Russian pipeline and the supporting bilateral security arrangements taking control of the entire Baltic is a very, very bad development.

They tried this some 70 years ago after foolish appeasement by the other European nations Im unwilling to tolerate a repeat of that history.

"Feanor is anti-Putin as anyone can be" BS

Who do you people think you are that you can say and do what you want w/o facing any consequences?

Ive got news for you.

I wont fall at your feet in submission Ill quarantee you that.

You, Feanor, Rutin and all belligerent,unrepentant and unapologetic Russians and their supporters wherever they may be owe me a personal public apology and a change in yours and their words and actions.

I will now settle for nothingless.

I have as they say "drawn a line in the sand".

Enough is enough.

troung

Yeah just shows ethnic cleansing works...

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

Ophir

We live on different planets.

Alex_Ivanov

Ophir, have you noticed how easily you, Feanor and I, having absolutely different ideas, can look similar to a proper eye?

Feanor

It funny how it's almost a perfect assembly. The hard core right (you), the hard core left (me), and the moderate (Ophir). Now we just have to wait for rickusn to call us all Putin's secret agents here to silence him .

Alex_Ivanov

Wrong! Everyone knows that there's no right, left and center in Russia, there're those who support Putin and those who sit in jail.