Transient

You have money so you build weapons. You have weapons so you look for a place to use them. Arab street logic.

When was the last time Israel threatened the destruction of Iran? Or any other arab country? Tell me please? How many times has Iran sworn to destroy Israel in the last year alone? How many times have arab countries attempted to invade Israel?

gunnut

Do you know how many of our warheads we decommissioned? Do you know how many of former USSR's warheads we help decommission? Take a guess. The number is in the hundreds, if not thousands. We actually paid Russia and a few other former Soviet republics to deactivate their nukes.

You don't think. That doesn't make it true.

So you admit the IAEA believes Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons. Otherwise where did this time frame come from?

That's right. We are monitoring Iran's non-compliance and have determined an invasion is not off the table.

Capitalism has nothing to do with creating weapons just to use them. Capitalism means things are worth however much people are willing to pay for them.

That is incorrect. The defense budget for 2007 is less than $600 billion. You're off by almost 20%.

Federal Budget Spending and the National Debt

We have a $13 trillion economy. Our defense budget is only 4.5% of our GDP. Still high by Europe's standards, but not outrageously high. Our defense expenditure in WW2 exceeded 40% of our GDP. Our WW2 GDP exceeded half of the world's GDP.

We have global interest. We are the world police. We fight a bunch of little wars to prevent the big ones from happening. That costs money. Freedom isn't free.

Did the president, prime minister, or some other high ranking government official form Israel publicly state Iran should be wiped off the map? I some how missed that. Can you provide me with some evidence of this threat?

Not unknown. They bombed Syria. So far, Syria, US, and Israel won't disclose what was bombed. Everyone is guessing that was a nuclear facility, but no one wants to admit it. Syria doesn't want to admit it has such a facility. Israel doesn't want to admit it knows Syria has such a facility. And we don't want people to know that we know what's going on.

No one said Iran is not sovereign or proud.

No it's not. Tell Ahmedinajad to shut up about wiping Israel off the map.

If Iran stops advocating genocide, we will talk.

Ahmedinajad is not mad because he doesn't toe our line. He's mad because he openly talks about genocide and then questions attempted genocide of jews in the past.

Do you think Bush is mad if he says he wants to wipe Iran off the map? Do you think Bush is mad if he says god willing there will be a day without Iran or Persia in the world?

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Officer of Engineers

This was before the NPT and the help supplied did not include a nuclear weapons program nor the knowledge for a nuclear weapons program.

1st of all, Israel is not a signatory of the NPT. Both the US and USSR has dismantled over 20,000 nuclear warheads combined. By treaty, both Russia and the US will have less than 3000 operational nuclear warheads. So, yes, the US is disposing of their weapons. If you look through the history, France has also gone through a similar percentage reduction.

Explain AQ Khan.

We have already provided ample proof that Iran is going for a nuclear weapons program. Just people refuse to believe it.So what? Iran signed the NPT. Iran is violating the NPT.

Could've, should've, would've.

Iran signed the NPT. What part of that you don't get?

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Chimo

Indirect Fire

And why is this a problem again?

America and Russia did do so. Hundreds of warheads were dismantled on both sides. Besides, how do you not know about the above? Have you been living under a rock for 20 years?

3-5 years is not a very long amount of time... Also, explain the massive amount of evidence indicating that Iran does have a nuclear program.

Yes, and that's because the US is upgrading to counter China's power, and it is currently fighting a war. Additionally, do those other 100 countries have the same GDP as the United States? I think not.

Ooohhhh.... A few Israeli jets with extra fuel tanks are somehow going to "sneak" into Iran, get past numerous radar complexes, bomb their target, and get out alive. How realistic indeed. Also, isn't this a contradiction of the above?

Iran is stockpiling "nukes" because of what the world learnt from Iraq: The US is willing to attack any country for oil. By having nukes, Iran can keep a legitimate counter-threat, and keep off a US invasion for at least a couple of months.

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I have no idea what I'm doing. Honestly!

Adil Memon

Transient:

I certainly do not support the President's childish rhetoric. He can not wipe off a country just by threatening to do so. You should also understand this.

And Israel itself is no angel. It is a threat hanging over all the Arab nations whenever a major conflageration arises over the Palestine Issue in the Middle East. (Remember: The massive air power it used in 1967 war.)

Gunnut:

US Still has nukes. Doesn't it? All the other signatories of NPT have? The countries that feel insecure are pursuing them.

The IAEA people are professionals. They know up to what level a nuclear programme is civilian... and at what stage it become military in nature. They judged the timeframe from the speed with which the Iranians are pursuing their programme. They still have to install those P2 (advanced level) centrifuges to build nuclear weapons. They still do not have them.

The other major point of disagreement between us was the figure of the defence budget. You may be right as you have referred a link. My statement was based on my previous knowledge. I remember I read it somewhere. Anyway, thanks for the correction.

Officer of Engineers:

Please read the treaty. It calls for total disarmament. Destroying a few warheads doesn't mean anything.

You are right. Isreal is not a signatory of NPT like both India and Pakistan. US has no problem with the weapons of any of these three countries. It has also forgiven Pakistan.

It only has problems with Iran and to a lesser extent, North Korea? Why does it want to go to war with India and give economic aid to Korea to end its Nuclear Programme? Please read the history of its talks with North Korea. And you will see the US discrimination.

AQ Khan is a criminal, a proliferator. Though he is our national hero.

Iran did not violate the NPT. It only pursued its programme a little secretly. All its facilities are open to IAEA Inspection.

Indirect Fire:

That was with reference to the post of Mr. Officer. Please read the first page of the thread.

You are also requested to study the NPT. Total Disarmament! Does that ring any bells?

You people simply do not believe the IAEA. You didn't believe it on Iraq. You don't believe it now. You just have your own evidence. Don't you have your own evidence on 9/11?

Why does the US really have to counter China? Can't it co-exist with a Chinese power? Why this belligerence?

You don't know. These Arab countries have been selling oil to even their worst enemies if they are paid for that. Iranian economy runs on oil revenues. US has money to pay for it... and Iran is ready to sell it.

It wasn't oil in Iraq that dragged US in the mire. It's something more: Grand ambitions to reshape Middle East.


NOTE: I will not reply now. These discussions are taking too much of short time I am left with to prepare for my exams. I will come back. Thanks to all for replying. It was nice.

Regards.

gunnut

Well, it certainly doesn't look good when someone makes a threat and also is actively acquiring means to carry out that threat.

It's one thing if I yell I want to kill you and your family. But it's quite another if I'm yelling such a statement, and then looking around to buy a gun.

Perhaps Iran should remove a childish president and install someone more mature and responsible in his place.

Look at the map. Look at how much strategic depth Israel has vs. that of the surrounding Arab nations. Look at the population count. Israel was outnumbered 30 to 1, probably more today. They got wind of an imminent attack and did their best to protect their people. Do you deny there was a plan by the 5 or 6 Arab powers surrounding Israel to attack in 1967? Has Israel invaded Syria, Jordan, or Egypt since 1980? No. The only nation they invaded was Lebanon and that was because a bunch of terrorists kept lobbing rockets over.

Do you know what the word "proliferate" means? Do you know what the phrase "non-proliferate" means?

NPT doesn mean all nuclear powers will disarm all of their weapons. It means the signatories will not pursue further development of nuclear weapons.

Well, then, Iran should have no problem with a couple of reactors run by the IAEA. They are professionals. And they will make sure the reactors are used to generate power rather than gather nuclear material for bombs.

I understand your point. We have a staggering defense budget. But look at the GDP of Iran. It's about $178 billion. Do you know what the state budget for California is for this year? $160+ billion!!! That's just a single state, albeit the largest state in the union (people, not land area). We spend a lot of money on everything because things are expensive.

Officer of Engineers

I realize that you are now in a critical period of your life. Please do that 1st, this is 2ndary. You can react to my response at your convience.

I have read the treaty. I am very well versed in the treaty. No offense to you you young pup, I was part of the treaty. Allow me to quote you the reverent parts of the treaty.

The Arms race has been ended and treaties on reductions has been enacted. In short, all N5 has lived up to the letter of the treaty though not the spirit of the treaty.

In short, the N5 has not violated the NPT by the LETTER of the agreement.


Wrong. There are alot of problems but trying to go through the problems is a headache and a half. What the US has been TRYING to do is to live up to the LETTER of the NPT but NOT the spirit of the NPT.

I don't have to. North Korea withdrew from the NPT making its pursuit of nuclear weapons legal as is India's and Pakistan's BUT NOT Iran's.

Then you should know that AQ Khan sold a Chinese nuclear warhead blueprint to whoever paid the price, including Iran. A design I might add given in complete confidence by the Chinese to a supposed loyal ally.


No, they are not. A simple google would've revealled that Iran operated cascades outside of IAEA superivsion and that those cascades were sold to Iran with falsified dates by AQ Khan. Those cascades identified by western intel and IAEA remains outside of IAEA inspections.

Son, let me give you good luck on your exams but you're dealing with dinosaurs here who's played the game before you were alive. Hell, we were alive when Elvis was playing in Vegas!

tony6623

According to your logic, from chinese stand-point It is necessary for china to give Iran several Nuke in return for oil.

tony6623

There are some reasons for china to surport Iran in the coming war between Iran and US:

(1)US usually surported the enemy of china in a war.
so,why does not china surport Iran in coming war with us?

(2) China obviously feels threat from US,and US frequently uses force all over the world.

tphuang

huh? stop spreading these neocon agenda views.

Ironduke

Iran feels insecure because the US has nukes? If I were them, I'd worry more about Israel. Even then, their chances of getting nuked are slim. Iran's real agenda is upsetting the balance of power in the Middle East. Something that's not in our interests.

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The Buck Stops Here

tangshiyn

Evrycountry of the world has the right to peaceful nuclear energy,I think.

tony6623

right.

But it is too bad that US thinks friends of US have the kind of right, but the enemies of US have not.

So, the world is not silence any more.

Bella

tony6623........please tell me your between 12-14 years of age, because reading a lot of your posts are the most hostile things I've ever read on this forum.
WOW!!!!

xrough

I think every country has the right to acquire nuclear technology as long as its for the good reason..

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