US-Taiwan: status quo strain - Page 2

Feanor · 09-14-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

That looks like a pretty good offer.

The offer is good as long as Taiwan has the military to hold the Chinese to their part. Otherwise some day (2070 AD) the Taiwan province of PRC may find the PLA at their doorstep, and no international powers interested in helping.

Ray · 09-15-2007, 12:30 PM

I saw on TV the huge rally in Taiwan about Taiwan's case for entry in the UN.

The US and China is not well disposed to the idea of Taiwan joining the UN.

It means a large population is not taken to be a part of the world! This is more so, or so it appears, when the Taiwanese do not take them to be a part of a nation and in fact, has all the trappings of a sovereign country!

I wonder if Taiwan has a chance to join the UN and if not, how do they projec their view to the world body?

Triple C · 09-15-2007, 15:19 PM

Thank you General, for your comments on Taiwan. I hate it so when my country is so unjustly treated; I do not think Taiwan has any realistic chance of joining the UN. China had made clear that it will not do business with any country that recognizes Taiwan, and has been working very hard to outbid Taiwan in gaining the support of developing countries in Polynesia and Africa.

Tigeranger · 09-15-2007, 17:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

I wonder if Taiwan has a chance to join the UN and if not, how do they projec their view to the world body?

Only after Taiwan wins its own war of independent.

Archer · 09-15-2007, 17:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple C

Thank you General, for your comments on Taiwan. I hate it so when my country is so unjustly treated; I do not think Taiwan has any realistic chance of joining the UN. China had made clear that it will not do business with any country that recognizes Taiwan, and has been working very hard to outbid Taiwan in gaining the support of developing countries in Polynesia and Africa.

I wish India and the ROC strengthen ties, but that will also imply that the ROC must recognise Indias position in the India-PRC conflict. India could serve as a very useful conduit for Indo-Israeli weapons, without it being a public affair, and it would shore up the ROCs defence against the PRC.

gunnut · 09-15-2007, 18:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

I wish India and the ROC strengthen ties, but that will also imply that the ROC must recognise Indias position in the India-PRC conflict. India could serve as a very useful conduit for Indo-Israeli weapons, without it being a public affair, and it would shore up the ROCs defence against the PRC.

That's a very interesting proposal. India is big enough to stand up against China where as other smaller nations would cave in to the political and economical pressure. But China could put considerable pressure on Europe to limit their cooperation with India should this happen.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-15-2007, 20:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

I wish India and the ROC strengthen ties, but that will also imply that the ROC must recognise Indias position in the India-PRC conflict. India could serve as a very useful conduit for Indo-Israeli weapons, without it being a public affair, and it would shore up the ROCs defence against the PRC.

Unless India promises an army marching north if a Mainland Chinese fleet sails east, Taiwan will not be interested. The RoC has always historically sided with Beijing in any border dispute. For what little India could offer, Taiwan will not abandon historic Chinese claims.

Tigeranger · 09-15-2007, 23:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Taiwan will not abandon historic Chinese claims.

But the current independent movement seems to be willing to do so,as part of replacing ROC with the new title of Republi of Taiwan. All they want is the island itself.

Also, as a chinese military expert, Sir. Do you forsee any military actions in the strait? I felt that the PLA may undertake some small scale military operation against Taiwan. Maybe after the communist's big meeting in Oct.

Ray · 09-16-2007, 00:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Unless India promises an army marching north if a Mainland Chinese fleet sails east, Taiwan will not be interested. The RoC has always historically sided with Beijing in any border dispute. For what little India could offer, Taiwan will not abandon historic Chinese claims.

That is right that Taiwan recognises that Tibet is a part of China and also the territories of India that China has laid claim on.

However, the Joint naval exercise, Ex Malabar, of the US, India, Australia, Japan and Singapore Navies has put China's tentacles up.

Neither China nor India, in the current circumstances and given the terrain and weather and the communications infrastructure can mount any viable invasion of each other. The land confrontation will merely be confined to the borders if it ever erupts!

The fact that China, the greatest ally of Pakistan, has not assisted Pakistan in its wars with India by opening up an eastern front is an indication that China realises that not much can be gained territorially, as also it would push India right into the lap of the USA/ Russia and that would be catastrophic for China.

If Taiwan is recognised as an independent sovereign country (remote possibility, given the way China controls the world market as a prolific exporter) with its borders as is current, then it is a different matter.

Currently, it would be adequate for India to back Taiwan in its endeavour and let things pan out.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-16-2007, 00:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigeranger

Also, as a chinese military expert, Sir. Do you forsee any military actions in the strait? I felt that the PLA may undertake some small scale military operation against Taiwan. Maybe after the communist's big meeting in Oct.

The PLA has to earn their paycheque somehow.

However, I don't think anything is going to happen. CSB's efforts is a dismal failure. Beijing needs only to gloat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Currently, it would be adequate for India to back Taiwan in its endeavour and let things pan out.

Sir,

No one is supporting CSB's efforts, certainly not India. No one is going to recognize a Republic of Taiwan anytime soon.

Ray · 09-16-2007, 01:25 AM

I agree that none will recognise Taiwan.

The world has been grabbed by the gonads by China.

It is the apple of everyone's eyes and even Readers' Digest does not publish those ever so heart wrenching stories about the 'torture', 'brutality' or 'disappearances' and the 'unrest' behind that colourful epithet, "The Bamboo Curtain"!

The Taiwanese are 'unrecognised' people who live and breathe but are 'non existent' to the world!

They are like that person who was the central character in the book. "Man without a Country".

Quote:

(The protagonist of the story is a (fictional) young United States Army lieutenant named Philip Nolan, who developed a friendship with the visiting Aaron Burr. When Burr is tried for treason (as he actually was in 1807), Nolan was tried as an accomplice. During his testimony, Nolan bitterly renounced his nation, angrily shouting "D--n the United States! I wish I may never hear of the United States again!" (When the novel was first published, the word "damn" was considered too obscene for publication.) Upon conviction, the judge icily granted Nolan his wish: he was to spend the rest of his life on warships of the United States Navy, in exile, with no right to ever again set foot on U.S. soil, and with no mention ever again made to him about his country.

The sentence is carried out to the letter. None of those in whose custody Nolan remains will speak to him about the U.S., and his newspapers are censored. Nolan is unrepentant at first, but over the years becomes sadder and wiser, and desperate for news. One day he says to a young officer as they are being rowed back to the ship on which he is being held,

..."For your country, boy," and the words rattled in his throat, "and for that flag," and he pointed to the ship, "never dream a dream but of serving her as she bids you, though the service carry you through a thousand hells. No matter what happens to you, no matter who flatters you or abuses you, never look at another flag, never let a night pass but you pray God to bless that flag. Remember, boy, that behind all these men..., behind officers and government, and people even, there is the Country Herself, your Country, and that you belong to her as you belong to your own mother. Stand by her, boy, as you would stand by your mother...!" I was frightened to death by his calm, hard passion; but I blundered out that I would, by all that was holy, and that I had never thought of doing anything else. He hardly seemed to hear me; but he did, almost in a whisper, say, "Oh, if anybody had said so to me when I was your age!"

Deprived of a homeland, Nolan slowly and painfully learned the true worth of his country. He missed it more than his friends or family, more than art or music or love or nature. Without it, he was nothing. Dying, he shows his room to an officer named Danforth; it is "a little shrine" of patriotism. The Stars and Stripes are draped around a picture of George Washington. Over his bed, Nolan had painted an eagle, with lightning "blazing from his beak" and his claw grasping the globe. At the foot of his bed was a dated map of the old territories. Nolan smiled. "Here, you see, I have a country!"

Nolan dies content after Danforth finally tells him all that has happened to the U.S. since his sentence was imposed.)

**astralis** · 09-17-2007, 10:33 AM

tigeranger,

Quote:

But the current independent movement seems to be willing to do so,as part of replacing ROC with the new title of Republi of Taiwan. All they want is the island itself.

as you say, because the pan-greens only recognize the island itself...how, as taiwanese and being a completely sovereign state, would they have any right to renounce what is china's, another sovereign state?

ray,

Quote:

The Taiwanese are 'unrecognised' people who live and breathe but are 'non existent' to the world!

ah, thus the unofficial motto of the taiwanese diplomatic community: "the world has abandoned taiwan, but taiwan shall not abandon the world."

Ray · 09-17-2007, 13:14 PM

Astralis,

I haven't abandoned Taiwan.

I buy Taiwanese products including my Acer Laptop, which I was told is Taiwanese. even Lenovo was giving a better deal!

Most of my Desktop is Taiwanese.

I am all for the underdog and deprived and abandoned!

gunnut · 09-17-2007, 17:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Astralis,

I haven't abandoned Taiwan.

I buy Taiwanese products including my Acer Laptop, which I was told is Taiwanese. even Lenovo was giving a better deal!

Most of my Desktop is Taiwanese.

I am all for the underdog and deprived and abandoned!

The brand might be Taiwanese, but the product itself is probably made in China.

By the way I had Acer's very first computer back in 1982. It had 64k of main memory and used a cassette tape drive for main storage.

xinhui · 09-17-2007, 18:04 PM

I will get flame for saying this; but a good personal friend of my who was a senior member of the DPP thank-tank "china-affair", visited India number of times for "unofficial" fact-finding missions during the late 1990s and early 2002, he was put off by the racist comments and views displayed by the Indian official (BJP) that he encountered. That experience left a very bad impression. He wrote about his experiences in one of DPP's internal blog.

There is a reason why the security sharing arrangement between ROC/India of 1998/1999 went no where.

He has not visited India since the new government took office and he has moved to a different senior position.

09-15-2007, 12:30 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,119 Country:	I saw on TV the huge rally in Taiwan about Taiwan's case for entry in the UN. The US and China is not well disposed to the idea of Taiwan joining the UN. It means a large population is not taken to be a part of the world! This is more so, or so it appears, when the Taiwanese do not take them to be a part of a nation and in fact, has all the trappings of a sovereign country! I wonder if Taiwan has a chance to join the UN and if not, how do they projec their view to the world body? __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

09-15-2007, 15:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
Triple C Contributor Join Date: 04-10-06 Posts: 676	Thank you General, for your comments on Taiwan. I hate it so when my country is so unjustly treated; I do not think Taiwan has any realistic chance of joining the UN. China had made clear that it will not do business with any country that recognizes Taiwan, and has been working very hard to outbid Taiwan in gaining the support of developing countries in Polynesia and Africa. __________________ What benefits the body is called medicine; what benefits the soul, discipline. -Augustine of Hippo

09-17-2007, 18:04 PM	#30 (permalink)
xinhui Lei Feng Protege *Defense Professional* Join Date: 05-17-06 Posts: 651	I will get flame for saying this; but a good personal friend of my who was a senior member of the DPP thank-tank "china-affair", visited India number of times for "unofficial" fact-finding missions during the late 1990s and early 2002, he was put off by the racist comments and views displayed by the Indian official (BJP) that he encountered. That experience left a very bad impression. He wrote about his experiences in one of DPP's internal blog. There is a reason why the security sharing arrangement between ROC/India of 1998/1999 went no where. He has not visited India since the new government took office and he has moved to a different senior position. Last edited by xinhui : 09-17-2007 at 18:18 PM.

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09-17-2007, 13:14 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,119 Country:	Astralis, I haven't abandoned Taiwan. I buy Taiwanese products including my Acer Laptop, which I was told is Taiwanese. even Lenovo was giving a better deal! Most of my Desktop is Taiwanese. I am all for the underdog and deprived and abandoned!

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