Let's keep an eye on the up-coming Russian-China military Exercise - Page 4

Zeng · 08-06-2007, 21:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigeranger

Now the Chinese troop is finally arrived at the exercise ground. Could anyone give an assessment on this troop movement operation? My own assessment is this:

3. Second helicopter team arrived ahead of schedule. Good or Bad? I have watched a report by the Phoenix TV(that is a Chinese language Satellite TV program). During the program, the PLAAF general brag about this by saying that the second helicopter team has discovered that they had enough fuel during the flight, so they speed up and arrived at airfield ahead of schedule. The PLAAF general thought that was good. I personally think it is bad. Because it tells me after receiving the MI-17 for so many year, the PLA still don’t know the try capability of the helicopter they flying. Well, I guess this is what the training and exercise for. Now the PLA will have the long range flying experience, which is good for them.

For the long range helicopter flying, I think that weather condition may affect its flying range and speed. During planning when the original schedule was made, probably a relatively bad weather condition should have been considered. While they got luck weather to fly, so they changed plan and arrived ahead of original schedule.

In my opinion, the schedule change during flying may have indicated some degree of flexibility in their communication and plan.

I need to acknowledge that I know nothing about military issues and welcome correction and education from any type of educators.

Tigeranger · 08-09-2007, 11:21 AM

Some disappointment:

1. The so call hostage rescue operation is nothing but a assault on fixed location. Highly scripted,just like before.
2. New advance weaponary
3. Chiness airborne troop still making the jump without their weapon

Chinese JH-7 Launch ROCKETs, not PGM at the exercise.

The differance between Russian and Chinese Air borne troop.

Feanor · 08-09-2007, 19:59 PM

Wait so Chinese para-troopers would land without their weapons? Then . . . . . . what are they just hard-to-hit targets to make the enemy waste ammunition?

**Officer of Engineers** · 08-12-2007, 23:46 PM

This is interesting ... found by CDF's Dylan

Quote:

GARRISON CHEBARKUL (Chelyabinsk region), August 11 (Itar-Tass) - Military personnel and hardware of the Airborne Troops of Russia and China will not be airdropped during the Peace Mission 2007 exercise of Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) that was launched at the Chebarkul range outside Chelyabinsk on Saturday at the request of the Chinese side, Russian AF Deputy Commander-in-Chief and deputy head of the manoeuvres on the Russian side Major-General Oleg Kolyala told Itar-Tass.

Chinese officials motivated their request by the necessity of the exercise's additional practicing and dress rehearsal that will be conducted on August 13, said Kolyala.

The official also said that the first joint training of the military contingents of Russia, China and Kazakhstan held on August 6 showed that "we have certain problems regarding target approach by China's army aviation and striking to destroy the enemy."

"Meetings of the two countries' Air Force and army aviation officials held after that give reasons to say now that we have reached mutual understanding not only on the ground, but also in the air and that the tasks set before us, including intelligence ones, on delivering strikes to destroy the enemy on the ground will be totally fulfilled," the deputy head of the manoeuvres pointed out.

Meanwhile, head of the manoeuvres from the Russian side Colonel-General Vladimir Moltenskoi said at the opening ceremony of the command-staff part of the exercise on Saturday that Peace Mission 2007 should show to the whole world that the SCO is capable of "independently counteracting" the challenges and threats existing in the region,

Military servicemen of SCO countries in the preparation of Peace Mission 2007 have gained huge experience, which will allow them not only to conduct the manoeuvres successfully, but also "to hold analogous events in the future," General Moltenskoi pointed out. According to the official, "The manoeuvres have evoked wide-scale response not only in our countries, but also in all corners of the world, the attention of all world media is drawn to them." He expressed confidence that the manoeuvres will become a new step in the sphere of the training of armed forces of SCO member states "for joint combating the threats of terrorism, separatism and religious extremism existing in the region."

General Moltenskoi stressed that the exercise participants "should demonstrate that the SCO and armed forces of its countries have all possibilities for ensuring stability and security in the region."

The official stressed, "Succeeding in conducting the manoeuvres, we should further increase the authority of the SCO, armed forces of its countries and our nations."

The antiterrorist command-staff manoeuvres of member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation involve about 6,000 servicemen of the armies of Kazakhstan, China, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, as well as over 1,000 military equipment units.

The exercise opening ceremony was held at the Chebarkul military range in the morning at which the troops participating in the manoeuvres were briefed and given the operation directive to hold the exercise. The directive was signed on Thursday by the Chiefs of the General Staffs of SCO member states in the Chinese city of Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

The first joint training session, in which about 4,000 servicemen and over 500 combat and special-purpose vehicles are taking part, followed the ceremony.

Ahead of the manoeuvres that will last until August 17, the Chiefs of the General Staff of SCO countries held military-political consultations in Urumqi.

Chief of General Staff of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Liang Guanglie said the consultations were held "in a cordial and friendly atmosphere." "We exchanged vies on problems of international and regional security, issues of military cooperation and the Peace Mission 2007 exercise," he said. "The parties reached broad mutual understanding on all the matters discussed," according to the Chinese official.

According to Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces General Yuri Baluyevsky, the Peace Mission 2007 manoeuvres mean a specific step in the sphere of the training of armed forces of SCO member states for joint countering threats to security existing in the region. Along with terrorism, extremism, drug aggression, organised crime and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, Baluyevsky also mentioned problems related to ensuring security "in the conditions of growing pressure of mass media of certain Western states." "These states continue to make attempts to convince our nations of the necessity of the formation of the so-called 'true democratic' institutions of state and public management after the fashion of the West, which causes destabilisation of the situation in the states of the region," said the Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces.

The first such manoeuvres of SCO member countries were conducted in China in 2005.

S-2 · 08-13-2007, 00:53 AM

"Baluyevsky also mentioned problems related to ensuring security 'in the conditions of growing pressure of mass media of certain Western states.'

'These states continue to make attempts to convince our nations of the necessity of the formation of the so-called true democratic institutions of state and public management after the fashion of the West, which causes destabilisation of the situation in the states of the region,' said the Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces."

Stunning.

Meanwhile, do I detect a distinctly choreographed smell to these proceedings? If true, it would seem that the operational utility of these exercises might be minimal and of far lesser import than a stage to utter comments such as the above?

It does sound like they are working to resolve doctrinal matters of army aviation employment. Further, it never hurts to work with other nations, even if the combined joint exercises are a political-driven event.

Now, against what threat exactly are these two very powerful militaries conducting such expensive combined training exercises? I look to our resident sinotologists for further detail on this matter. Thank you.

Ray · 08-13-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

10 August 2007
''Peace Mission 2007 and the S.C.O. Summit''

On the eve of the upcoming Shanghai Cooperation Organization (S.C.O.) summit, the members of the security alliance are hosting their largest joint military exercises in Russia and China. All six permanent members of the organization are participating in the exercises, which are scheduled to be held from August 9-16. The mission begins in Urumqi, the capital of China's Xinjiang Autonomous Region, and then moves to Chelyabinsk in the Ural mountain region of Russia. The joint military exercises, dubbed "Peace Mission 2007," demonstrate the growing importance of the S.C.O. in Central Asian geopolitical calculations. [See: "The 'Great Game' Heats Up in Central Asia"].......................................

Conclusion

That the S.C.O. has grown from a loose collection of independently-minded states into a strong, largely unified organization will be on display this week at the joint military exercises and the political summit. The S.C.O.'s strength grew to counter the presence of Washington in the region, and was dominated by China and, to a lesser extent, Russia. The organization is now an important aspect of the regional geopolitical balance, and it is attracting attention from Iran, Pakistan, and Mongolia.

The stronger the S.C.O. grows, the weaker Washington's strategy of dealing with Central Asian countries on a strictly bilateral basis will become. Still, Washington is a long way from being pushed out of the region as long as it maintains a troop presence in Afghanistan. After the summit ends, Washington is likely to send representatives to the area to demonstrate its commitment to the region.

Report Drafted By:
Adam Wolfe

More at:

The PINR Report

Russia and China are getting to be assertive militarily. The Russians are once again buzzing US bases and building new radars and planning to project their missiles towards Europe. The Chinese are doing it in their usual unobtrusive way as is evident by this exercise which starts in Urumqi. It is also a message to the separatist Uigurs.

What should be watched is whether this exercise has a message wherein the exercise is so structured as to signify it as a reaction force of the SCO to ''outside' influence/ occupation of any CAR country/ asset/ natural resource.

It is obvious that it is a counter to the US, which has bagged Ukraine, Georgia and even allegedly influenced the failed revolutions in the CAR. It has indeed frightened China and Russia that the US plans to settle in, in their backyards!

**Officer of Engineers** · 08-13-2007, 12:56 PM

Clearly, this is more than a military exercise. When was the last time anyone of us got this kind of greeting?

Or that we're obligated to bring along the entertainment?

Still, a division level exercise to retake a single town?

Quote:

SCO states begin phase II of joint drill
By Le Tian (China Daily)
Updated: 2007-08-13 06:55

CHELYABINSK, Russia: About 2,000 troops from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) member countries held a joint anti-terrorism exercise on Saturday, kicking off the second phase of Peace Mission 2007.

Troops from China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan staged a parade at a military base near Chelyabinsk in Russia's Ural Mountains.

The commanders of the six countries said the SCO has abided by the "Shanghai Spirit", which embodies mutual trust and benefit, equality, respect for cultural diversity and a desire for common development.

The organization has established a new model of defense and security cooperation under the principles of openness, transparency and non-targeting of a third party, they said.
The joint exercise is aimed at showing SCO members' determination to crack down on the "three evil forces" of terrorism, separatism and extremism, General Xu Qiliang, deputy chief of General Staff of the PLA, said at an oath-taking ceremony.

Also, it will improve their battle effectiveness and upgrade their cooperation mechanism to maintain regional peace and stability, said Xu, who is the Chinese commander-in-chief for the drill.

The joint military exercise has also set a good example for the international community to join hands to fight terrorism, Zhu Jianye, China's legal counselor for the anti-terrorism drill, said.

Zhu, major-general of the People's Liberation Army, said the exercise conforms to the mission and principle of the UN Charter and is "legitimate and undisputable" in terms of international law.

Colonel General Vladimir Moltenskoy, deputy commander-in-chief of the Russian Army, corroborated Zhu, saying: "I believe the drill will contribute a lot to the SCO's efforts to combat terrorists and religious extremists."

The nine-day exercise began in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, on Thursday. The second phase is being held in Russia's Ural Mountains.

The drill takes place in the backdrop of the SCO summit in the Kyrgyz capital of Bishkek on August 16.

The second phase of the drill will see a group of terrorists seizing a small town in the Urals, and the six SCO member countries will launch a joint operation to free the town and its residents.

Actually, I'm very surprised that the PLA requested the cancellation of the drop. It shows that they could not adapt to unforeseen events even in an exercise.

Ray · 08-13-2007, 13:03 PM

Quote:

Shanghai cooperation, military overtones

SCO war games indicate that the Kremlin may be seeking stronger military ties within the group as a counterbalance to Western pressures on missile defense and other security issues.

Commentary by Sergei Blagov in Moscow for ISN Security Watch (13/08/07)

Member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) have repeatedly pledged not to form a military bloc or band together against any nation; however, the group's major war games this week appear to come as an indication that its agenda is becoming increasingly security-oriented.

The 9-17 August "Peace Mission 2007" in Chebarkul in Russia's Ural Mountains region of Chelyabinsk, brings together 4,000 troops from SCO countries, including more than 2,000 from Russia and some 1,600 from the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

The war games are understood to include a strong air element, with the Russian and Chinese air forces represented by 24 helicopters, eight fighter jets and six Ilyushin Il-76 military cargo planes from each nation. The selection of aircraft and presence of paratroopers appear to indicate that the maneuvers involve training of a possible joint rapid deployment, a sign of collective security arrangements.

SCO officials repeatedly have claimed that the joint drill was not a sign of the grouping's evolution into an anti-western military alliance. On 10 August, Chinese Ambassador to Russia Liu Guchang announced in Moscow that the SCO joint military exercise would not target any other country or organization. The SCO would not become a military bloc, Liu said, adding that the group's non-confrontational agenda was not aimed against any third country or organization.

Ahead of the drill, on 8-9 August, top SCO military officials held strategic consultations in Urumqi, the capital of northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. At the meeting, General Yuri Baluyevsky, head of the Russian Army's General Staff, denied any plans of forming a military bloc, but said SCO economic cooperation would be impossible without stronger security in the region. He also said the SCO would hold similar war games, possibly as soon as next year.

However, Baluyevsky told the meeting the SCO should work out a clear understanding of how the military element of the organization would develop. In April, Russia drafted and passed to other SCO nations a blueprint for military cooperation, he said, adding that the member states were yet to come up with any response. Baluyevsky's statement appeared to indicate Moscow's eagerness to see more military elements in SCO operations.

Formally launched in Shanghai in 2001, the SCO initially prioritized economic, trade and cultural cooperation among member countries, but in recent years the grouping has been increasingly prioritizing military ties. In August 2005, Russia and China held eight-day maneuvers code-named "Peace Mission 2005," which involved some 10,000 troops in east China's Shandong Peninsula.

But while the previous drill was not high-profile politically, simultaneously with "Peace Mission 2007" the SCO is due to hold its annual summit on 16 August in the Kyrgyz capital Bishkek. And this year the maneuvers are being observed by heads of states of the six SCO nations on 17 August.

The venue of the SCO summit is also significant in terms of the grouping's policies. At the summit in the Kazakh capital of Astana in July 2005, SCO leaders urged US-led coalition forces to declare a timetable for withdrawal from Afghanistan as well as from Manas base in Kyrgyzstan. The grouping demanded a limit on outside interference in nations' internal affairs and approved the observers status of Iran, Pakistan and India in the SCO.

Kyrgyz authorities have been keen to demonstrate their pro-SCO stance by demanding increased rent payments for the US air base at Manas, which is used for supporting missions in Afghanistan. Bishkek has raised the issue with Moscow, which uses a Kyrgyz air base at Kant.

Ahead of the last summit, Kyrgyz media was ripe with speculation that Washington might have tried to undermine relations among SCO members ahead of the summit.

The US military presence at Manas is understood to remain a matter of concern for the SCO, although the issue is not on the official agenda of the Bishkek summit.

The leaders of Iran, Turkmenistan and Mongolia are expected to attend the summit. Although officials insist that the SCO expansion by inclusion of Iran is not on the organization's agenda, Iranian participation remains an affront to the West.

Apart from advocating the grouping's increased military role, Russia has also been keen to develop a connection between its own disagreements with the West and the SCO agenda. When SCO defense ministers met in Bishkek in June to discuss the drill, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov lost little time in lashing out at the US missile defense plans for Eastern Europe. In an apparent reference to the US policies, he reportedly claimed that some nations selfishly misused the "war on terror" and nuclear non-proliferation, thus undermining the legitimate interests of other countries.

The Kremlin is likely seeking stronger military ties within the SCO as a counterbalance to perceived Western pressures on missile defense and other security issues. However, it remains far from certain whether the SCO nations, above all China, would be willing to support the Russian strategy.
ISN Security Watch - Shanghai cooperation, military overtones

So, things re hotting up!

Never underestimate the adversary!

wkllaw · 08-13-2007, 13:24 PM

Wow, the man kicking the monk there is ... surprising to say the least. I heard of it before, but actually seeing photos of it makes me gain more respect for the monk's training.

gunnut · 08-13-2007, 16:36 PM

I said kick me in the jimmy!!!

YEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!!

Zeng · 08-13-2007, 21:09 PM

OOE, thanks for the pictures especially the first two, the beautiful girls (in Russian native cloth or Chinese army uniform) and delicious bread. That is the strategic partnership we are looking for.

SCO is really taking shape.

First, two cornered weak giants try to use SCO showing the super power that corners them, --- we are going to help each other politically and diplomaticly in the international stage using the form of a milltary excerise. While I think that helping each other militarily is out of question for these two huge countries.

Second, SCO helps both Russia and China to check the center Asia terrorist movment.

I wonder if there are possibility or need to introduce other countries into SCO in the near future. Which countries can be included?

**Officer of Engineers** · 08-13-2007, 21:53 PM

When compared to NATO or even Warsaw Pact Exercises, this is miniscue and yet got far more media than it actually deserves ... at least militarily speaking. I was really hoping to see more this time but the cancellation of a scripted ... I mean scripted air drop really raises my eyebrow. The Chinese got more than 2 years to prepare and they couldn't get the script right?

And the entertainment? We're lucky if the band was playing at the Mess. And I'm sure East German, Czech, and Polish troops never got so much eye candy.

Which brings to the point S2 and the Brigadier were alluding to, Just what is this exercise suppose to accomplish? Wklaw and Zeng_xinren touched on it - to send a message to the US ... but it's more than that. The Russians and the Chinese are also keeping an eye on each other.

Again, do note what kind of forces are participating. No one is sending the best of the best. The Chinese refused to ask for any help from the Russians to solve their air drop problem. The J-10 stayed at home and the piece of junk JH-7xxxx was sent instead. The Russians only committed a single air drop company that was withdrawn at the request of the Chinese. Clearly, both sides know that they cannot and will not show their best.

Contrast this to the NATO history projects with the former Warsaw Pact. The Czechs had plans to Moscow's nuclear strike doctrine. The Chinese and the Russians are far from being allies, let alone best friends, ... but perhaps very good neighbours.

Feanor · 08-14-2007, 00:56 AM

So you think it's a play being put on for the rest of the world? Hmm even the name seems to indicate political motives.

Ray · 08-14-2007, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Mr Ahmadinejad's final port of call will be a meeting of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation in Kyrgyzstan, where he is expected to bid for Iran's status to be raised from observer to full member.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Iran leader begins Afghan visit

The plot thickens!

Tigeranger · 08-14-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

The plot thickens!

It will be foolish for Russia and China to raise the status of Iran. It will be so ironic that the world’s biggest terrorist supporter became a member of so call “Anti-terrorism” organization. And Russian has just pissed off Britain with that bomber flyby and Canada with that flag placing fiesta. And China need U.S.’ support on the Taiwan issue so it could host the Olympic Game in peace. Very bad timing even just talk about raising Iran’s status.

08-13-2007, 00:53 AM	#50 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 1,923 Country:	Who Likes The Sound of This? "Baluyevsky also mentioned problems related to ensuring security 'in the conditions of growing pressure of mass media of certain Western states.' 'These states continue to make attempts to convince our nations of the necessity of the formation of the so-called true democratic institutions of state and public management after the fashion of the West, which causes destabilisation of the situation in the states of the region,' said the Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces." Stunning. Meanwhile, do I detect a distinctly choreographed smell to these proceedings? If true, it would seem that the operational utility of these exercises might be minimal and of far lesser import than a stage to utter comments such as the above? It does sound like they are working to resolve doctrinal matters of army aviation employment. Further, it never hurts to work with other nations, even if the combined joint exercises are a political-driven event. Now, against what threat exactly are these two very powerful militaries conducting such expensive combined training exercises? I look to our resident sinotologists for further detail on this matter. Thank you. __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

08-13-2007, 13:24 PM	#54 (permalink)
wkllaw Contributor Join Date: 03-07-07 Location: New York City or Hainan, China Posts: 572 Country:	Wow, the man kicking the monk there is ... surprising to say the least. I heard of it before, but actually seeing photos of it makes me gain more respect for the monk's training. __________________ Those who can't change become extinct.

08-13-2007, 16:36 PM	#55 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 8,591 Country:	I said kick me in the jimmy!!! YEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

08-13-2007, 21:09 PM	#56 (permalink)
Zeng Contributor Join Date: 01-16-07 Posts: 502 Country:	OOE, thanks for the pictures especially the first two, the beautiful girls (in Russian native cloth or Chinese army uniform) and delicious bread. That is the strategic partnership we are looking for. SCO is really taking shape. First, two cornered weak giants try to use SCO showing the super power that corners them, --- we are going to help each other politically and diplomaticly in the international stage using the form of a milltary excerise. While I think that helping each other militarily is out of question for these two huge countries. Second, SCO helps both Russia and China to check the center Asia terrorist movment. I wonder if there are possibility or need to introduce other countries into SCO in the near future. Which countries can be included? Last edited by Zeng : 08-13-2007 at 21:11 PM.

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08-09-2007, 11:21 AM	#47 (permalink)
Tigeranger Regular Join Date: 03-14-07 Posts: 41 Country:	Some disappointment: 1. The so call hostage rescue operation is nothing but a assault on fixed location. Highly scripted,just like before. 2. New advance weaponary 3. Chiness airborne troop still making the jump without their weapon Chinese JH-7 Launch ROCKETs, not PGM at the exercise. The differance between Russian and Chinese Air borne troop.

08-09-2007, 19:59 PM	#48 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	Wait so Chinese para-troopers would land without their weapons? Then . . . . . . what are they just hard-to-hit targets to make the enemy waste ammunition?

08-13-2007, 21:53 PM	#57 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 14,876 Country:	When compared to NATO or even Warsaw Pact Exercises, this is miniscue and yet got far more media than it actually deserves ... at least militarily speaking. I was really hoping to see more this time but the cancellation of a scripted ... I mean scripted air drop really raises my eyebrow. The Chinese got more than 2 years to prepare and they couldn't get the script right? And the entertainment? We're lucky if the band was playing at the Mess. And I'm sure East German, Czech, and Polish troops never got so much eye candy. Which brings to the point S2 and the Brigadier were alluding to, Just what is this exercise suppose to accomplish? Wklaw and Zeng_xinren touched on it - to send a message to the US ... but it's more than that. The Russians and the Chinese are also keeping an eye on each other. Again, do note what kind of forces are participating. No one is sending the best of the best. The Chinese refused to ask for any help from the Russians to solve their air drop problem. The J-10 stayed at home and the piece of junk JH-7xxxx was sent instead. The Russians only committed a single air drop company that was withdrawn at the request of the Chinese. Clearly, both sides know that they cannot and will not show their best. Contrast this to the NATO history projects with the former Warsaw Pact. The Czechs had plans to Moscow's nuclear strike doctrine. The Chinese and the Russians are far from being allies, let alone best friends, ... but perhaps very good neighbours.

08-14-2007, 00:56 AM	#58 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	So you think it's a play being put on for the rest of the world? Hmm even the name seems to indicate political motives.

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