Chinese Invasion of Taiwan, 2007 - Page 8

Bowman · 03-28-2007, 22:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Zeng,

Back off. I gave you a wide latitude but this is where you are as in the dark as everybody else. For one thing, the official PLA budgets do not include capital purchases. Regiments do not have to buy their tanks or guns or even bullets. The PLA does not pay pensions. The CCP does. This essentially means that we have no way what a Chinese soldier costs.

Added to this, we really don't know what the expansion plans of the PLA is. Yes, they've shrunked by a million men since the 1980s but the number of regiments have not been reduced.

So don't tell us what you know because you know nothing.

Not a very moderate response, Mr. Moderator. It's interesting to hear the perspective of an actual ******** who has made the effort to learn our language and engage in reasoned debate. Why talk statistics, anyway. China's economy is growing so rapidly that a 0% increase in budget expressed as a percentage of GDP would equate to a lot more SU-27s and Sizzlers. .

Others are right, incidentally. China's glaring deficiency in sealift capabilities would thwart any serious attempt on Taiwan.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-28-2007, 23:19 PM

I'm sorry. Who the hell are you?

Zhang Fei · 03-29-2007, 01:47 AM

Inst, here's one historical instance of how the officialdom fractured, with each going a separate direction:

Quote:

Revolt of the Three Feudatories

The Three Feudatories (Chinese: 三藩; pinyin: sān fàn) were territories in southern China bestowed by the early Manchu rulers on three Chinese generals (Wu Sangui, Geng Jingzhong, and Shang Zhixin). In the second half of the 17th century, these generals revolted against the Manchu Qing Dynasty. This rebellion came as the Qing rulers were establishing themselves after their conquest of China in 1644, and was the last serious threat to their imperium until the 19th century conflicts that ultimately brought about the end of the dynasty in 1912. The Revolt was followed by almost a decade of civil war which extended across the breadth of China.

Background

In 1655, the Qing government granted Wu Sangui, a man to whom they were indebted for the conquest of China, both civil and military authority over the province of Yunnan. In 1662, after the execution of Zhu Youlang, the last Ming claimant to the throne, Wu was given jurisidiction also over Guizhou. In the next decade he consolidated his power and by 1670 his influence had spread to include much of Hunan, Sichuan, Gansu and even Shaanxi. Two other powerful defected military leaders also developed similar powers: Shang Zhixin in Guangdong and Geng Jingzhong in Fujian. They ruled their "feudatories" as their own domains and the Qing court had virtually no control over the provinces in the south and southwest.

By 1672 the young Kangxi Emperor had determined that the feudatories were a threat to the Manchu regime. In 1673 Shang Zhixin submitted a memorial requesting permission to retire and in August of the same year a similar request arrived from Wu Sangui, designed to test the court's intentions. Kangxi went against the majority view in the Council of Princes and High Officials and accepted the request. News of Wu's rebellion reached Beijing in January 1674.

Opening moves

The same day, Zhu San taizi, a pretender to the Ming throne, led a revolt of several hundred household slaves at the capital. As chaos spread and a majority of the southern bureaucracy defected, the Kangxi Emperor hurriedly organised a pacification plan. He sent a vanguard at top speed to hold Jingzhou in the Middle Yangtze to press down Hunan and ordered the Xi'an garrison to move to Sichuan. At the end of the month, two staging areas had been established, one in Yanzhou, Shandong to handle logistics in eastern China and another at Taiyuan, Shaanxi, for Shaanxi, Sichuan and the southwest. Prince Lergiyen, son of the great Lekedehun and direct descendant of Nurhaci, was named commander-in-chief of the Qing armies.

In early 1674 the Qing forces suffered a number of setbacks. Wu Sangui captured most areas south of the Yangtze and in the west pushed through Sichuan. In Gansu, General Wang Fuchen revolted and took Gansu and much of western Shaanxi into the rebel camp. Sun Yanling, who had ordered to hold Guangxi, also revolted, along with Geng Jingzhong's Fujian feudatory. Only Shang Zhixin in the far south remained loyal to the Qing.

In the spring of 1675, the Mongol leader Burni revolted in Manchuria and led an army on Shenyang. A federation of Mongol tribes was coordinated by Mala, a director from the Court of Colonial Affairs, against Burni. An ad-hoc army under generals Oja and Tuhai was also sent against the northern threat. They managed to rout Burni and he was killed by the Korchin Mongols.

Turn of the tide

Around the spring and early summer of 1675, the Kangxi Emperor became increasingly disillusioned with the performance of Manchu commanders. The pacification campaigns were bogged down in Zhejiang, Shaanxi and Ningxia. The third feudatory, Shang Zhixin, rebelled in Guangdong, and one of the Emperor's most vaunted generals, Chen Fu, was killed in a mutiny in Ningxia. Then, with startling suddeness, the course of the war turned. Without coherent administration and leadership, the rebels fragmented and fought among themselves. Wang Fuchen returned to Qing allegiance and his troops were used by Kangxi in western China. In November, Geng Jingzhong surrendered to General Giyesu in Fujian, and his troops were sent to Jiangxi. Shang Zhixin surrendered in January 1677, and later that year Wu Sangui had Sun Yanling murdered because it was believed he too was about to surrender. Thus, the only major threats remaining to the Qing forces were Wu Sangui himself in the southwest, and Zheng Jing, son of the Ming loyalist general Zheng Chenggong, who threatened the southwestern coastline from Taiwan.

Victory and aftermath

The last four years of the war saw a steady series of Qing victories. Wu Sangui died of natural causes in 1678 and his grandson Wu Shifan committed suicide in Yunnan in December 1681. Zheng Jing was defeated near Xiamen (Amoy) in 1680 and forced to withdraw to Taiwan, dying there in 1681. Geng Jingzhong was sentenced to death by slicing and his head displayed in public. Many who surrendered in good faith in the belief that they would receive amnesty from the throne were likewise executed.

The final victory to round off the wars of the three feudatories was the conquest of Taiwan. As soon as the war on the mainland was over, the Kangxi Emperor chose Shi Lang, a man who had been admiral to the Zheng family fleets during the early 1640s, to lead an amphibious operation against Taiwan. Shi Lang insisted on having independent command, from the Governor-General of Fujian, Yao Qisheng, and the Governor-General of Guangxi and Guangdong, Wu Xingzuo. He assembled a fleet of three hundred vessels and defeated the Zheng family's leading naval commander Liu Guoxuan on a major engagement near the Pescadores. A few weeks later, in October 1683, the last members of the Zheng family in Taiwan surrendered.

The Kangxi Emperor had finally succeeded in securing his place on the throne and reunified the empire. He cemented this with policies to integrate members of the Chinese literate elite into the Qing state and to reduce the protracted bitterness of south China.

One problem with rebellions in Chinese history is that every leader who sprung up never actually thought of himself as a leader within his own little patch of land. His end game was always the whole enchilada - the entire Chinese empire. Some who might have successfully defended small territories overstretched their resources and abilities and went down to ultimate defeat.

Another problem, related to their inability to match war aims to their resources and personal abilities, was a chronic disposition to back-stab their allies every chance they got, and an inability to use alliances for anything other than short-term benefit. This is how the central government always managed to get the upper hand. If the Roman empire had such feckless opponents, we'd be looking at its third millennium today.

glyn · 03-29-2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I'm sorry. Who the hell are you?

Good question. Well put. Dunno. 'Bowman' has not introduced him or her self to the membership ( which is expected of newbies), nor has the Personal Profile been sullied by a single word. Claims in first post to be British but spells in the US way. Interesting. Have we a troll, perchance?

dave lukins · 03-29-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Good question. Well put. Dunno. 'Bowman' has not introduced him or her self to the membership ( which is expected of newbies), nor has the Personal Profile been sullied by a single word. Claims in first post to be British but spells in the US way. Interesting. Have we a troll, perchance?

Fear Naught Glyn the Colonel has a good nose!!

glyn · 03-29-2007, 14:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave lukins

Fear Naught Glyn the Colonel has a good nose!!

If you call him Pinocchio you will be visiting the pokey!

dave lukins · 03-29-2007, 17:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

If you call him Pinocchio you will be visiting the pokey!

Question is, would I have to hand back my LSaGC Medal?

glyn · 03-29-2007, 18:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave lukins

Question is, would I have to hand back my LSaGC Medal?

You mean for bloody long service and 'fairly good' conduct? Well, as you undoubtedly got it under false pretences to begin with I shouldn't be surprised if it had to be forfeited.

HuaQiao · 03-31-2007, 18:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemontree

We do know about Dr. Kotnis. His story is part of our school syllabus.

Your repeated claim of China not desiring to be a super-power is rather hollow. US, Russia, and India, are happy with their territorial integrity and have no desire to "add" disputed regions in the nations maps. While China feels incomplete and is focused at rectifiying 1000 yrs old history; hence the invasion of Tibet, claims on Arunachal, Kashmir, Vietnam, islands in the South China sea, and Taiwan being the most desired piece of real estate. It escapes your attention that the people of these regions want to stay away from China.

I totally totally agree! But in Zheng's defence (probably) he's lived and grew up in China for the most part of his life. This would most almost definately mean that he grew up constantly without any acess to relaible information. Well, except propagandist information which are not reliable to begin with and brain-washing in nature. So I guess maybe give him some time... no no... CCP seemingly are excellent brain-washers so... maybe lots & lots of time.

HuaQiao · 03-31-2007, 19:26 PM

Hi Zeng, I must say that I am really impressed. You are very much a smoooooth talker, but very self-contradicting, and 2-faced I must say. You know, with the "does not" to "should not" ~ "China want to make friends" to "China in awkward situation, China fears the threats from other countries" ... which is it??? Were you sent by the CCP to spread propaganda because this forum could not be shut down by your govt? so how much does the CCP pay you?

"China's massive army was just for surviving." What type of horse$hit is this? Tell me which country is threatening to invade China today? You talk excatly like the CCP: "Oh eh, China is peaceful and friendly" but then spend tens of billions on your military (real spending likely to be 2 - 3 times that), shooting a missile into space when space is internationally de-militarised) threatening to invade Taiwan when in the first place, Taiwan was not and is not a Chinese province.

And how is democratic statements empty? Just because you're being fed by your government you shouldn't try to mislead people. Have more respect for yourself because if you were still in China, you'd have less rights & freedom than my dog. It seems that it's not so much of you loving China than you loving the CCP. So the next time you wanna squirt your crap everywhere, pls think about your countrymen who are in prison and those who have and are being executed.

And when someone says that people are trying to stay away from China, your claims of all those who want to go there is besides the point. Those are just people jumping on the band-wagon trying to take advantage of China's economic rise, it doesn't mean they love the place. Btw, since you're such a patriotic person, why'd you leave your country anyway?

oh oh, i forgot you're probably on a CCP mission eh!?

**astralis** · 03-31-2007, 19:56 PM

huaqiao,

i don't necessarily agree with zeng's views, but you need to stop the personal attacks.

xerxes · 04-01-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuaQiao

Hi Zeng, I must say that I am really impressed. You are very much a smoooooth talker, but very self-contradicting, and 2-faced I must say. You know, with the "does not" to "should not" ~ "China want to make friends" to "China in awkward situation, China fears the threats from other countries" ... which is it??? Were you sent by the CCP to spread propaganda because this forum could not be shut down by your govt? so how much does the CCP pay you?

"China's massive army was just for surviving." What type of horse$hit is this? Tell me which country is threatening to invade China today? You talk excatly like the CCP: "Oh eh, China is peaceful and friendly" but then spend tens of billions on your military (real spending likely to be 2 - 3 times that), shooting a missile into space when space is internationally de-militarised) threatening to invade Taiwan when in the first place, Taiwan was not and is not a Chinese province.

And how is democratic statements empty? Just because you're being fed by your government you shouldn't try to mislead people. Have more respect for yourself because if you were still in China, you'd have less rights & freedom than my dog. It seems that it's not so much of you loving China than you loving the CCP. So the next time you wanna squirt your crap everywhere, pls think about your countrymen who are in prison and those who have and are being executed.

And when someone says that people are trying to stay away from China, your claims of all those who want to go there is besides the point. Those are just people jumping on the band-wagon trying to take advantage of China's economic rise, it doesn't mean they love the place. Btw, since you're such a patriotic person, why'd you leave your country anyway?

oh oh, i forgot you're probably on a CCP mission eh!?

Shutup .... *****, I hate dumb people like you, that all they can say is that: "Btw, since you're such a patriotic person, why'd you leave your country anyway?". Why are people soooo dumb and stupid sometimes?

btw I guess you dont know the definition of patriotism ...

As far as China military spending it is their own business, and last I checked no one is threatning to invade the United States either ... but yet they have a military and gigantic military budget that dwarves that of China ..

gunnut · 04-01-2007, 21:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes

As far as China military spending it is their own business, and last I checked no one is threatning to invade the United States either ... but yet they have a military and gigantic military budget that dwarves that of China ..

We were happily gutting our military for almost 10 years beginning with Clinton's government. Had 9-11 not happen, do you think we would actually boost military spending by more than 0.5% GDP?

xerxes · 04-02-2007, 00:04 AM

^^

My point is that what nations spend on their armed forces is their own business. Sense, I am fair, I mean all nations: wether be PRC, Israel, States, Iran etc. etc. That was my point.

To complain that CCP brags about peace but has undisclosed fairly large military budget is ludicrous, sense all nations do that.

As far as the effect 9-11 on US military budget, I wouldnt know mr Gunnut, however I take you word for it and I am incline to believe what you are saying is correct. Though, I would think if 9-11 wokeup anything, it should have been increase in security and more budget for CIA-NSA, rather then more money for the military hardware.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-02-2007, 00:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes

To complain that CCP brags about peace but has undisclosed fairly large military budget is ludicrous, sense all nations do that.

And start an arms race which frankly the Americans already won hands down and very possibly set Tokyo, Taipei, and Seoul onto the nuclear weapons path. Something that Beijing definetly does not want.

03-28-2007, 23:19 PM	#107 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,066 Country:	I'm sorry. Who the hell are you? __________________ Chimo

03-31-2007, 19:56 PM	#116 (permalink)
astralis *Foreign Service* Moderator Lei Feng Protege Join Date: 08-23-05 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,490 Country:	huaqiao, i don't necessarily agree with zeng's views, but you need to stop the personal attacks. __________________ Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Debate about China, india and US economies, by Businessweek	oneman28	Political Discussions	7	11-28-2007 08:43 AM
China’s democratization and reunification	pin_qinghai	International Defense Topics	100	01-06-2007 07:59 AM
PLAN Analysis	rickusn	Naval Forces	9	06-12-2006 15:05 PM
China's Changing Military Ideology	Frank Zhou	World Affairs Board Pub	0	05-03-2006 18:58 PM
World Naval Rankings	rickusn	Naval Forces	66	03-04-2005 01:11 AM

03-31-2007, 19:26 PM	#115 (permalink)
HuaQiao Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: KL Posts: 82 Country:	Hi Zeng, I must say that I am really impressed. You are very much a smoooooth talker, but very self-contradicting, and 2-faced I must say. You know, with the "does not" to "should not" ~ "China want to make friends" to "China in awkward situation, China fears the threats from other countries" ... which is it??? Were you sent by the CCP to spread propaganda because this forum could not be shut down by your govt? so how much does the CCP pay you? "China's massive army was just for surviving." What type of horse$hit is this? Tell me which country is threatening to invade China today? You talk excatly like the CCP: "Oh eh, China is peaceful and friendly" but then spend tens of billions on your military (real spending likely to be 2 - 3 times that), shooting a missile into space when space is internationally de-militarised) threatening to invade Taiwan when in the first place, Taiwan was not and is not a Chinese province. And how is democratic statements empty? Just because you're being fed by your government you shouldn't try to mislead people. Have more respect for yourself because if you were still in China, you'd have less rights & freedom than my dog. It seems that it's not so much of you loving China than you loving the CCP. So the next time you wanna squirt your crap everywhere, pls think about your countrymen who are in prison and those who have and are being executed. And when someone says that people are trying to stay away from China, your claims of all those who want to go there is besides the point. Those are just people jumping on the band-wagon trying to take advantage of China's economic rise, it doesn't mean they love the place. Btw, since you're such a patriotic person, why'd you leave your country anyway? oh oh, i forgot you're probably on a CCP mission eh!?

04-02-2007, 00:04 AM	#119 (permalink)
xerxes Padishah Shahanshah *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-23-07 Location: Canada Posts: 1,240 Country:	^^ My point is that what nations spend on their armed forces is their own business. Sense, I am fair, I mean all nations: wether be PRC, Israel, States, Iran etc. etc. That was my point. To complain that CCP brags about peace but has undisclosed fairly large military budget is ludicrous, sense all nations do that. As far as the effect 9-11 on US military budget, I wouldnt know mr Gunnut, however I take you word for it and I am incline to believe what you are saying is correct. Though, I would think if 9-11 wokeup anything, it should have been increase in security and more budget for CIA-NSA, rather then more money for the military hardware.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)