Chinese Invasion of Taiwan, 2007 - Page 3

gunnut · 03-10-2007, 00:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

2) The Apollo mission was a hoax perpetrated by the imperialist U.S. government.

Good. Let them think that.

A wiseman once said "the US has lost more space shuttles than the rest of the world has ever even made."

deadkenny · 03-10-2007, 19:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

... And as far as the A-bomb goes, we probably didn't do it as a warning because Stalin knew we only had 3, and we had used two. Doesn't make us so formidable does it? And the final point is this, and this goes for the Apollo question too, the conspiarcy theories remain theories in the west, but those theories are official in China...

Again, not sure what you mean when you say something like the Apollo mission 'conspiracy theories' are 'official'. Regarding the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, I agree that the 'frighten the USSR' theory doesn't make much sense, but it still exists and not just in the PRC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

...
We helped them in China just as much as they helped themselves in WW2. We organized an army for them (though they didn't use it), we flew supplies over the "hump" when the Burma road was cut and it was an extremely dangerous venture, American support supplied them with their only air force, and the allies reestablished the Burma road by retaking Burma from the Japanesen and by building the Stillwell road from India-an extremely bloody venture. They couldn't have won without the help of, primarily, British, Empire, and American troops.
...

All that assistance went to the Chinese Nationalist forces though, definitely NOT the communists. That's the point, the communists claim that they were fighting the Japanese while the Nationalists did not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

...
The Korean War: this is how I've always interpreted it-

...After this, despite the fact that the objective was simply to reinstitute the 38th parallel, the allies decided to retake the peninsula under democracy, and capitalism....

I'm not sure it was 'the allies' that decided this, it was more a decision taken by Mac and 'gone along with' by the allies. In fact, I'm not sure how much say the President had in the decision!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

... So now I'll give my impression. In my opinion, it was a partial victory for the allies, and a complete defeat for the communists. Our original objective was to retake the peninsula under democracy. This changed after our victory at Seoul, and we decided to take the peninsula. The Communists objective was one, and paramount throughout the war: take the entire peninsula. Since they didn't accomplish the war objective, then the only other explanation is that they lost. We had a partial victory because our second objective was to reunite the peninsula, but our primary objective was to reestablish the 38th parallel which we did, and even pushed north of it in all sectors except for the extreme west. That would tell me that we had a partial victory, but, in view of the fact that the north didn't accomplish any objectives of theirs, we won the war in my opinion.

You're assuming that North Korea had the same objective as the PRC, 'lumping' them together as 'communists'. I agree that N. Korea's objective was the conquest of the South, and in that they failed. In fact if not for the intervention of the PRC they would have lost most / all of their own country as well as failing to take the south. However, I do not believe that it is so clear that the objective of the PRC in the war was the complete conquest of S. Korea. Thus I believe that the PRC could also claim a 'victory', since the US did in fact try to 'liberate' the North, but ultimately failed to do so. I agree that the US / UN can also claim a measure of victory, as they did succeed in their original objective, which was to re-establish a separate S. Korea and undo the aggression by N. Korea.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-10-2007, 19:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadkenny

However, I do not believe that it is so clear that the objective of the PRC in the war was the complete conquest of S. Korea.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/his...spiracies.html

ExNavyAmerican · 03-11-2007, 00:48 AM

deadkenny;

I mean by "official". Taught in the classrooms. In the textbooks. In non-textbook history books. That's what I mean by official.

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

Maybe you're right zeng, but my students told me this is what is taught in Chinese schools.

Sir, I can assure you that among the three “China truths” you mentioned, only around 0.5 is truth and 2.5 are exaggerations.

China teaches that Korean War is a victory but never mention any USA invading China except bombing. In fact, I agree that China got victory in Korea whether China achieved her original goal or not. In my #23 comments, I explained that from today’s situation in Korea peninsula that the final result was even better than China’s original goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I don't talk about Taiwan to them. It's none of my business. Anyway, it would get me fired.

Good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

Once again, I don't. But if they ever mentioned Abu Gharib, I'd tell them about the crimes that carry the death penalty in China: namely tax evasion. I'd also tell them about the women who was put under house arrest for trying to go to get a traveler’s visa to the United States.

I hope that you tell them the China’s problems and crimes. You will help China more and I will respect you more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I don't argue. I tell them about America, and say it's a nice, and beautiful place. But I tell them there are good things about China, and I tell them to love, and support their country no matter what. My students seem to like me well enough, but I'm not running a popularity contest: I'm running a classroom.

That is a balanced teaching. It is great. Please also tell them France is also a nice and beautiful place. I can’t agree your view on France in other threads. I sure hope that your student like you well enough because most Chinese students like their teachers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

Chinese have a bad habit of not being direct. I heard that it is customary to lie rather than be honest for the sake of politeness.

Sophisticated Americans do that too. But, it is OK if you can’t understand Chinese culture and subtleness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

With my students I'm very calm, and I retain my composure-it happens after nearly 2 decades in the navy-but with politics, the gloves come off. I've started to reform this attitude now that I've taking part in a forum.

Great, it is what a teacher should do. You students are not your soldiers. I hope that your teaching experience also helps you to become a better man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

What I said isn't exaggeration: it's what is taught in Chinese public school system.

As I said, among your 3 “China truths”, around 0.5 is not exaggeration, other 2.5 are exaggerations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

In the statement you're referring to, I had started a new class, and I have already got them respecting me. I'm neither nice, nor mean: I play tit for tat; reward when it's deserved, and punish according to the crime. They respect me now. Anyway, we don't discuss politics: I don't allow it.

I am glad that you got your students respect you. Teachers deserve respect. Then, please stop spreading your comments like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

lemontree;
Yes, as a matter of fact. Chinese students are pretty bad actually. They have no respect for westerners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

Anyway, the point of the matter is that your "official" truths don't hold much stock because China's biggest enemy is facts.

We acknowledge China has problems. I myself mentioned many already on this forum. Education system is especially problematic because China’s “exam oriented” education and the recent rewriting history.

But China used so little resource to educate the largest poor population in the world. It makes sharp contrast with some American public elementary, junior and high schools, low quality with high spending.

By 2005, China’s elementary education enrollment rate reached over 99%, junior high 95%, high school 52.7% and college 21%, which is very high in the third world with a very low per capital GDP even among the developing countries. Although the educational quality is still low, but you can’t deny that it is an amazing achievement.

Our inviting foreigner including you to teach our kids shows that we have the courage to improve our educational system even more. Please don’t make good things into bad results.

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

That's what they claim they were taught, and I got a Chinese/English published textbook, and I read it in black and white. I understand that everyone can know what's going on in China, and that I'm not saying I'm the only authority, but I read it in their textbooks. And as far as the A-bomb goes, we probably didn't do it as a warning because Stalin knew we only had 3, and we had used two. Doesn't make us so formidable does it? And the final point is this, and this goes for the Apollo question too, the conspiarcy theories remain theories in the west, but those theories are official in China.

We helped them in China just as much as they helped themselves in WW2. We organized an army for them (though they didn't use it), we flew supplies over the "hump" when the Burma road was cut and it was an extremely dangerous venture, American support supplied them with their only air force, and the allies reestablished the Burma road by retaking Burma from the Japanesen and by building the Stillwell road from India-an extremely bloody venture. They couldn't have won without the help of, primarily, British, Empire, and American troops.

The Korean War: this is how I've always interpreted it-

The N. Koreans invade S. Korea all the way to Pusan. At this point, the UN gets inolved (note: many nations sent troops there, but American troops constituted the vast majority), General Macarthur takes command, sets up an organized perimiter around the Pusan region, and turns it into armed camp. For the reinvasion, he conducts an end run at Inchon, and blitzkriegs to Pyongyang afterwards. After this, despite the fact that the objective was simply to reinstitute the 38th parallel, the allies decided to retake the peninsula under democracy, and capitalism. Bypassing many pockets of resistance, he invaded north to the yaloo, but with an army approaching their border, the Chinese thought this was the perfect oppurtunity to get involved. The sudden influx of troops forced the allies back all the way south of Seoul. The allies quickly recovered, however, retook Seoul, and established a border that, though wasn't the 38th parallel, it was similar. Actually it was better because it gave the south some land advantages that the North held before. This all happened in about 1 year, and the next two years were spent with bloody fighting along the border: except for the repulse of a single Chinese offensive there were no strategic or decisive battles whatsoever.

What's mentioned up there's the history. So now I'll give my impression. In my opinion, it was a partial victory for the allies, and a complete defeat for the communists. Our original objective was to retake the peninsula under democracy. This changed after our victory at Seoul, and we decided to take the peninsula. The Communists objective was one, and paramount throughout the war: take the entire peninsula. Since they didn't accomplish the war objective, then the only other explanation is that they lost. We had a partial victory because our second objective was to reunite the peninsula, but our primary objective was to reestablish the 38th parallel which we did, and even pushed north of it in all sectors except for the extreme west. That would tell me that we had a partial victory, but, in view of the fact that the north didn't accomplish any objectives of theirs, we won the war in my opinion.

ExNavyAmerican Sir,

Please scan the textbooks for the section that support your claim. Upload them on this forum to prove your point. Show us the evidence, I will stand corrected. Is it fair to you and me?

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Good. Let them think that.

A wiseman once said "the US has lost more space shuttles than the rest of the world has ever even made."

gunnut,

You are a wiseman who read thing using brain

At least I hope so.

Let me put some Chinese web-links to show whether Mr. ExNavyAmerican is providing correct information. If you don't read Chinese, please don't give up and just look at the pictures. You may be familar with those pictures.

1) About Japanese surrender signatory ceremonies In China and in Japan:

¼ÍÄî¿¹ÈÕÕ½ÕùÊ¤Àû60ÖÜÄêÏµÁÐÊ®Èý_ÈÕ±¾Í¶½µÇ©×ÖÒÇÊ½¼ÍÊ µ_ÍøÒ×ÐÂÎÅÖÐÐÄ

ÈÕ±¾Í¶½µ¼°Ç©×ÖÒÇÊ½

Please compare the Chinese information with Mr. ExNavyAmerican‘s accusation: where did it mentioned Mao (毛泽东 or 毛主席)?

KMT’s anti-Japanese fight:
Ì¨¶ù×¯´ó½Ý¡ª¡ªÕ½ÓÚÊ¬É½Ñªº££¡

The heroes who helped China when China was in most difficult time:

American Flying Tigers (飞虎队):
Ô®»ª¿¹ÈÕµÄÃÀ¹úÖ¾Ô¸º½¿Õ¶Ó¡ª¡ª¡°·É»¢¶Ó¡±

CCTV International (this is an English web-link)

Soviet Union Flying Tigers (苏联援华航空队):
°Ù¶È_ÀúÊ·°É_ÓÀ²»ÍüÈ´µÄ¼ÇÒä£ºËÕÁªÔ®»ªº½¿Õ¶Ó

2) The Apollo moon mission:

SOHU Science channel:
Title: Classic eternity, overview of Apollo moon mission (the title already shows how Chinese scientist look at the mission)
¾*µäµÄÓÀºã °¢²¨ÂÞµÇÔÂÈ«Îö-ËÑºüIT

XXXfile: (from the name of this web-link, you know how official it is. Today, China even allow something like XXXfile web-link to exist, I personally think that it is progress. )

Title: Apollo moon mission is a hoax.
It translated an article from a Mexico media. In this article, a Russian researcher claimed that Apollo moon mission is a hoax. The article also mentioned that people refute the claim and think that it is impossible to make hoax for such a thing.
éLÆª£º¡°°¢²¨ÂÞµÇÔÂ¡±ÊÇÆ*¾Ö£¿£¿

Please compare the Chinese information with Mr. ExNavyAmerican‘s accusation: where did it mentioned the hoax made by imperialist U.S. government even though it is not a article written by Chinese originally.

3) About Korean War:

Baidu is the China’s official internet search engine. I am not going to defend that China put restriction on google internet search engine in China if you want to argue about it here.

³¯ÏÊÕ½Õù_°Ù¶È°Ù¿Æ

Please compare this page with Mr. ExNavyAmerican‘s accusation, where did it mentioned the United States invaded China.

About who started the war, it presented two versions. Version 1 from N. Korea side that accuses S. Korea started war. Version 2 said that N. Korea started war and mentioned that Version 2 is more prevailed opinion today.

It also mentioned that Mao instructed General Pong Dehui to continue the war after America proposed ceasing fire in January 13, 1951. It suggests that this was a wrong decision to cost big loss for CVA.

I am a pro-China Chinese. Therefore, I am not a neutral third party member to give the creditable translation. Could someone here read Chinese to make a confirmation on what I said and compare with what Mr. ExNavyAmerican‘s accusation? I appreciate your help very much.

To be fair to Mr. ExNavyAmerican, I should say that the information on the web-links I provided is relatively new. I think that it was taught in around last 7~10 years. The contents taught even earlier and during culture revolution is lesser subjective. It exaggerated more about CCP contributions in the anti-Japanese war and made Mao a god like person in China.

For example, CCP didn't mention the KMT's anti-Japanese contribution and mentioned little about the contributions from other ally contributions up to 1980s. I think that China started to mention that N. Korean started Korean War since 1990s.

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:09 PM

ExNavyAmerican Sir,

Originally, when I saw that an American teacher in China comes to this forum, I planned to give a warm welcome and greeting. Chinese people respect teachers by culture. We also really wanted to thank our American friends to come to China for help.

But IMO some of your posts are really inappropriate. Soap to clean China’s mouth, Chinese students are bad. Then, those exaggerated “China truths”.

Your comments on France are also contradicting with my own experience. I visited France twice. Beautiful country, great culture, glorious history and excellent people are really fascinating me.

You went to France and had bad experience. You went to China and had bad experience again. You came to this forum and had unpleasant arguments with others.

Have you ever doubt that you may have problem to misunderstand others? Are you sure that others always have the fault and you are always correct?

**astralis** · 03-12-2007, 21:28 PM

zeng,

as an aside from the debate you have going with exnavyamerican and gunnut, those links don't help your case any if people can't read them. lord knows i have enough trouble already, as simplified chinese gives me a small headache. on a forum- especially a primarily english-based forum like this one- you should post translations, or at the very least a more substantial summary, of what you put up.

thanks.

zraver · 03-12-2007, 21:44 PM

Soviet flying tigers?

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

zeng,

as an aside from the debate you have going with exnavyamerican and gunnut, those links don't help your case any if people can't read them. lord knows i have enough trouble already, as simplified chinese gives me a small headache. on a forum- especially a primarily english-based forum like this one- you should post translations, or at the very least a more substantial summary, of what you put up.

thanks.

OK, if people on this forum believe me, I will do some translation. There are two reasons that I didn't do it.

1. I am a pro-China Chinese and I am not a neutral third party member.

2. I was busy today. I can come back to make some translation later.

But please look at the pictures first. I am sure that you are familare with some of them.

Exnavyamerican can read Chinese. I was mainly put those for him.

Zeng · 03-12-2007, 21:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Soviet flying tigers?

I think that the exact name should be translated into "Soviet Union Aiding China flight team". IIRC, they came to China even earlier than the American "Flying Tigers".

Because the American "Flying Tigers" are much more famous, we call Russians the "Soviet Flying Tigers" in many Chinese articles.

Both American and Russian Flying Tigers did brave and excellent jobs in helping China in her anti-Japanese war. We wouldn't forget them.

zraver · 03-13-2007, 00:35 AM

ok soviet volunteers, after ENA's statements I was wondering if the AVG had been relabled the SVG by the CCP.

ExNavyAmerican · 03-13-2007, 01:05 AM

Zeng;

I neither want, nor expect a warm welcome from you. I've lived in China too long to care about what Chinese think of me. I've learned that China needs to be put in its place for the sake of the U.S, and for the world. Two superpowers isn't good for the world. Last thing we need is another cold war.

Zeng, I can read pin yin, but I can't read much Chinese. I can read some of it, but not much. However, I am very good as speaking Chinese.

Zeng · 03-13-2007, 21:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

ok soviet volunteers, after ENA's statements I was wondering if the AVG had been relabled the SVG by the CCP.

zraver,

American Flying tigers started as volunteers and finally recognized by the American government, while Soviet Flying Tigers were sent by the USSR government. They are not volunteers.

Sorry, I don’t understand the meaning of AVG and SVG in your comments. Do you mean AVG the American Volunteer Group and SVG the Soviet Volunteer Group?

In China, we also setup Monument and made movies to memorize following two Doctors who were from India and Canada.

Indian Dr. Kotnis (柯棣华大夫):
Indian Doctor's Selfless Service Remembered
Dr. Kotnis married with a Chinese lady and died in China in 1942. When Chinese president Hu Jingtao visited India, he visited the relatives of Dr. Kotnis.

We thank Indians for the help. But today not many Indians know Dr Kotnis:
Indians don't even know Dr Kotnis: Sisters

Canadian Dr Bethune (白求恩大夫):
People's Daily Online -- Advisor proposes birthday of Dr. Norman Bethune set as China's Doctor Day

Dr Bethune died in China in 1939. China has set “Bethune Medal” as the highest prize for the medical personnel. A Chinese political advisor suggested that China should set March 4, the birthday of Dr Bethune as the nation's Doctor Day.

I don’t know if many Canadians know Dr Bethune, almost every Chinese know his name.

03-11-2007, 00:48 AM	#34 (permalink)
ExNavyAmerican *Military Professional* Join Date: 03-02-07 Location: Ningbo, China Posts: 827 Country:	deadkenny; I mean by "official". Taught in the classrooms. In the textbooks. In non-textbook history books. That's what I mean by official. __________________ "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson

03-12-2007, 21:09 PM	#38 (permalink)
Zeng Contributor Join Date: 01-16-07 Posts: 608 Country:	ExNavyAmerican Sir, Originally, when I saw that an American teacher in China comes to this forum, I planned to give a warm welcome and greeting. Chinese people respect teachers by culture. We also really wanted to thank our American friends to come to China for help. But IMO some of your posts are really inappropriate. Soap to clean China’s mouth, Chinese students are bad. Then, those exaggerated “China truths”. Your comments on France are also contradicting with my own experience. I visited France twice. Beautiful country, great culture, glorious history and excellent people are really fascinating me. You went to France and had bad experience. You went to China and had bad experience again. You came to this forum and had unpleasant arguments with others. Have you ever doubt that you may have problem to misunderstand others? Are you sure that others always have the fault and you are always correct? Last edited by Zeng : 03-12-2007 at 21:16 PM.

03-12-2007, 21:28 PM	#39 (permalink)
astralis *Foreign Service* Moderator Lei Feng Protege Join Date: 08-23-05 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,484 Country:	zeng, as an aside from the debate you have going with exnavyamerican and gunnut, those links don't help your case any if people can't read them. lord knows i have enough trouble already, as simplified chinese gives me a small headache. on a forum- especially a primarily english-based forum like this one- you should post translations, or at the very least a more substantial summary, of what you put up. thanks. __________________ Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations Last edited by astralis : 03-12-2007 at 21:30 PM.

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zraver Contrary by nature. *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-22-06 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,377 Country:	Soviet flying tigers?

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ExNavyAmerican *Military Professional* Join Date: 03-02-07 Location: Ningbo, China Posts: 827 Country:	Zeng; I neither want, nor expect a warm welcome from you. I've lived in China too long to care about what Chinese think of me. I've learned that China needs to be put in its place for the sake of the U.S, and for the world. Two superpowers isn't good for the world. Last thing we need is another cold war. Zeng, I can read pin yin, but I can't read much Chinese. I can read some of it, but not much. However, I am very good as speaking Chinese.

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