Anony

If you are interested in reading how the political system in egypt works, google is wide open for you. Just to tell u from now its not 100% democratic, and i admitted it, so stop being childishly sarcastic.

Try to be a bit more professional in your replies. . Hindus have been terrorising muslims, and even christians in india . your immature use of the line "babes in the wood" appaled me out how unprofessional you can be. check out these sites:

http://www.leaderu.com/common/india.html

http://archives.tconline.org/news/la.../Gujarati.html

http://www.persecution.org/Countries/india.html

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers...rsecution.html

Its really great india has a democracy, and have had important personalities from the minorities, but how can you deny that muslims aren't being terrorized in india by the hindu majority? Even the christians are persecuted according to the above links.

Use logic, and do not blindly defend something undefendable, especially using your childish language. You have been in the army as you said, act like that.

Use logic, and do not blindly defend something undefendable.

I have read that website you linked a long time ago, but thx anyway, let others in the forum see it. There has been discrimination in egypt , so you are going to discredit my posts using that ?

"in explaining the Forces to the unitiated but self assuming knowalls!"

So is it bad that I do not know the Geneva convention ? I admitted it, and I am going to read about it. Who is a "self -assuming knowall" . please don't use phrazes like that, you are not supposed to debate in this low way.

Why don't you take your own advise and study how to talk respectfully in a public site ?

Ray

Anony,

What's my religion?

Stop feeling all Indians have one religion and all have to be that. Just show how prejudiced you are.

Dodo, you have not answered my basic question.

How many non Moslems have held important posts in Egypt in the govt.

OK, India is sh*t, but since you have not matched India in having minorities in the forefront, don't you think your are sh*ttier?

So, quit being supercilious.

Who says Christians are discriminated? In an way true, but then all are. I look at myself as an Indian and I have no religion since I want to be free of dogmas and rules tha govern my life without cognisable and discernable logic. Take all religions. They are loaded with fairy tales.

In India everyone is discriminated. The Moslems have quotas for jobs, while Hindus don't. Christians want the same treatment. The poor Hindus (but not scheduled castes and tribes) also want reservations. Hey the list goes on. Now, go to the web and check what is Vote Bank Politics. Maybe you will understand India better. Also go to the Asian sub forum and see the Family Planning thread. Shariat bans Family Planning. What crap. V}Can;t have chaps proliferating like......and sinking the Nation in poeverty and then such proliferators wanting reservations for jobs even if theya re not educated or qualified. Does the Shariat talk about giving jobs to idiots by the right of being an idiot?

Read our newspapers on line and see how much of Hindu bashing goes on.

I won't be like Vision by posting WTC tall messages stating ' See how free is the India Media' but just go there and then talk here.

No country will be picture perfect. And democratic countries cannot stop what is on the internet. I can start of website abusing you. Surely, that would not be the gospel truth, or would it?

Remember this:

'Choro, Mat maro' (Leave him, don't hit)

and

'Choro Mat, maro" (Don't leave him, hit)

Friend, it is all about an insignificant thing - a comma!

So watch for the commas!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

I know the Geneva Convention. Was a part of my bread and butter.

Unlike your Shariat which overrules every law of the world, Geneva Convention is very much a part of our legal jurisprudence as it is in other civilised parts of the world.

Had Nasser been alive, it may not have been the same in Egypt. Since you tell me that it isn't (as is obvious since you don't know) I reckon it has fallen into disuse and relegated in faavour of the Shariat.

What low about "self -assuming knowall", Those who pretend to know all, are surely self assuming knowalls. It is a fact of life. Where is the debate? Do you debate an axiom?

It is the price one pays when one wears boots which are a wee bit tight!

Imagine me being offended at being called a 'human'!

I don't study monkeys for knowledge that I should be equated with them.

Jay

Thats a blanket statement. If for arguement sake I consider that as true, then you should agree with me that all muslims are terrorists.

Lets see your references,
http://www.leaderu.com/common/india.html
This is from an evangelical website. This is like quoting the description of Jihad from AlQueda websie.

Now if you want me to tear that article apart, I can do so. If you have a slightest idea on our political and justice system, you would not prolly post this here. BJP govt at any point of time didnt/cannot consider taking away churches from places of worship, given the fact that some of the ministers in BJP govt (like Ex Defence Minsiter) were Christians. That article is a blatant lie, and it does not give any sources for its assertions.

Yes, there were attacks on Christians, but not on ordinary folks. Only the missinaries who were trying to convert the poor. IMO, Religion is a matter of personal choice. Evangelicals has no right to go about and spread their light.


http://archives.tconline.org/news/la.../Gujarati.html
Again another Gospel site. Atleast try to give some neutral, non-biased sources for your arguement. Yes Gujarat happened, Why? there are conflicting answers. Did hindu mobs killed muslims?? Yes. Did Msulims burn Hindus in the forst place?? Yes. Heck, its a religious riot, it just not happens in India but in a lot more places. Poor, illetrate people are easy to buy and terrorize. Muslims fight with in a religion (Shia-Sunni), which is even worse than Hindu-Muslim fight.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers...rsecution.html
Again, prolly you are subjectively reading news articles.
Did you read this?
Thats your problem, right there.

Well they arent. Go visit any Indian city, like Lucknow in UP, or Calcutta in WB in general they are not. We have 150 million muslims, do you think we can terrorize and perscue 150 million people with out anyones knowledge??

Actually, we have positive discimination for muslims, in govt jobs, schools et. But the Govt cannot force them to send their kids to schools instead of madrassas. Unless muslims change their outlook towards life and other reigions, these hings are bound to happen.

A little bit of logic, science and math will do them good than banging their head on the ground and learning Arabic and Koran 24/7.

Ray

Excellent post Jay.

I hate bell ringing Hindu priests, aazaan wailing Mullahs who wake up the dead, the Bible thumping padres and all of the 'religious order' who alone claim they are the conveyer of God's message.

They are all parasites living on mens' supersitions and making people FEAR God.

God is loving. Why should we fear HIM?

But FEAR is what scares chaps to stay with the flock like sheep and the blasted priestly order harangues on this lest anyone strays and they lose their power and thus there free lunches and perks of office!

Samudra

Hey dude
Have you been to India ?
Hindus have been terrorising muslims.Yes perhaps its because of our terrorising that muslims here bred like no one has ! Did you know their rate of growth in the population is near 36% ?

We hindus have terrorised muslims , one APJ Abdul Kalam has been so terrorised that today he is the President of India , five years back he was present with the nations greatest honour , the BHARAT RATNA.

Why dont you read a quote from the VERY SAME TIME link you gave ?

Did you even read the TIME report fully ? It says when a muslim chap was attacked by a Hindu mob , it was another hindu group which helped them escape.

As it once happened in my town , a few vagabonds from a muslim ghetto , killed a poor traffic policeman because he wanted them to respect traffic rules.Not to mention , the angry muslims burnt a Police Officers home that night and he had to flee his home along with his family . I know . I know because it was one of my buddies who went there picked up the officer and steered fast to escape the chasing bandicoots.Now tell me who terrorises whom

Do you know that in the world famous Sri Rangam ,Ranganathar Temple , there is a shrine for a muslim girl called Tullukanachiar , who fell in love with god Ranganathar and a devout shaivite hindu chola local king built the shrine for her , *** after *** the Moghul ruler from Delhi had looted the temple and hindus with great difficulty brought back the chief deitys idol from delhi...
Perhaps it would be surprising for you to know that Tullukanachiar was the Moghuls daughter.Perhaps you would like to call her a non-muslim ?

We have also persecuted Xtians so much , that upon Mother Teresa death , a national mourning was announced and a her final rites were performed with the full respects as such given to Ghandhi.Ray , would better know about this...there is good reason for that.

Did you know about veermamunivar (munivar == hindu term for a sage ) , a Italian JESUIT missionary who was a renowned Tamil scholar ,lived in India...somwhere back around 15 or 16th century ? We had Jews here , far back than you can imagine.They still love their promised land....just as they love India.

Did you know , the most famous school in Chennai , one of our metros is Don Bosco ? Xtian institutions are renowed here , for their quality of education.All us pagan hindus , are carving to get admissions into xtian convents.We have no qualms in saying "Our father , thou are in heaven...thy kingdom ".

When i was in my third grade , all us evil hindu infidels brought sweets after diwali celebrations to our teachers who were muslims and xtians.we all sang merry xtmas , all 2700 of us mostly indoos in our school in a assembly.And i think i am talking about all this for the second time here.

You must try to understand , Ray is talking about Islamism as a global phenomenon.Its only good for muslims to accept whats around and try correcting it....You views , that muslims are balmed is justified , but only if you are willing to see where the mistake is , where remedy is needed.Find them , correct them.We very same Indians have had good discussion on this with muslims in this very same forum.

Riots happen.Riots are engineered by a number of factors.And if you ever have lived in a multi-cultural , multi-etnic , mutli-religious , multi-lingual , multi-racial country like mine , you will understand how easy it is for writers like Andrew Perrin to trash us.

Anony

Where did I say that ? India hs Muslims, Christians and Hindus, did i say they have one religion? I am sorry if I showed any prejudice.
When i said Hindus terrorized muslims, I did not mean ALL hindus terrorized Muslims. That would be stupid, as everyone knows thats not right

Again for the sake of proper debates, I ask you to stop using sarcastic comments, you are not gaining respect by doing that.

Anony

I am sure christians can live a normal life in india. But since Ray was pinpointing muslims and trying to blame it on islam as a whole, I was showing that India is not 100% perfect, no country is. This debate is going to start as "my country is better than your country nonsense"

Now about logic, you just implied that not all christians and muslims get persecuted, and thats a few unfortunate events happened with the 2 sides being involved.
Now aren't you being rather prejudiced by saying "them" and generalizing muslims as "banging their head on the ground" ? You probably are preferring to those ignorant people who do that literally for 24/7, so please specify "them" next time. Please clarify your statements so you don't stir up prejudice in this forum needlessly.

Again let me clear something out for you that you seem not to get:

I have never said Egyptian government is perfect. I am proud of my heritage and I am proud to be egyptian and i love my country. But I am not going to defend anything that IS bad about it, so please stop thinking I am going to get affected if you post negative statements that just happen to be true, that goes especially for you Ray. Our debate was supposed to be on the difference of resistance fighters and terrorists lets not change the topic.

Anyway back to what the Colonel said , as long as the militias are able to recognise each other in Iraq, and ofcourse not hide behind women and children, then they are according to the Geneva Convention not terrorists.

So If someone in Iraq belonging to Group X, fires an anti-tank weapon against a U.S tank, is that called terrorism or resistance?

Officer of Engineers

He's an enemy combattant if and only if

1) If I see him, I know right away that he's an enemy combattant even from a distance.

2) He carries his weapons openly and not hidden.

3) He must belong to some sort of chain-of-command. And I must be able to recognize the rank structure by sight alone.

4) He must be able to fight according to the rules of war, meaning if you take prisoners, you must adhere to the GC, ie no beheading.

Otherwise, he's an unlawful combattant.

__________________
Chimo

Anony

Alright thanks for clarifying. So do you think there are any such combattants in iraq now ?

And if suppose they don't qualify these 4 critereas, does that make them terrorists or unlawful combattants? (assuming their aim is not the civilian population of either side)

lemontree

Sirs (Jay/Ray/OoE)...(my apologies for not addressing you according to your rank seniority, as I am new in this forum).

Its useless making this college kid understand any thing.
Anyway just to add to what Jay/Ray have been saying...The attrocities that Anony you talk in India are seletive, by products of our complicated politics. I will not state my religion, but I never considered my self a minority. I am a second generation army officer, and we Indians all served our counrty with honour. Nation was always before self. If there was discrimination, India would not have been the emerging giant that it is today.

We have our share of problems, we have our fundamentalists (non-muslim ones), but the rest of the sane people control them. You have only heard of the Hindus who attacked Muslims in Gujrat, but you did'nt hear the voice of the rest of the Hindus of India, screaming for the riots to stop. The army troops that went to control the riots were all hindus, and they did their job well.

__________________

Cheers!...on the rocks!!

Officer of Engineers

Jay is a civilain.

Ray is a retired Indian Army Brigadier.

I am a retired Canadian Forces Lieutenant-Colonel.

May we know your rank?

Officer of Engineers

The GC is very strict in its interruptation. Most of the current actions would not fall under the GC, in which case, this would be a police matter and not a military one. How your police deal with bombings would is not cover by the GC.

All this means is that the people carrying out these actions would not be protected by the GC.

Ray

Anony,

If you remember I was telling you that unless you guys (Moslem countries) take on the terrorists, they will take you on one say.

Though it is most unfortuante as to what has happened but just see what they have done to you. The best part of it, Egypt is not involved in the 'war on terror' and yet the Islamists have started their
war of terror' on Egypt.

Death Toll Is Uncertain After 3 Explosions Strike Resort Towns
By STEVEN ERLANGER

Published: October 8, 2004



EILAT, Israel, Friday, Oct. 8 - Three explosions shook three Egyptian Sinai resorts popular with vacationing Israelis on Thursday night. Israeli officials said they believed the blasts were caused by terrorist bombs.

There were conflicting reports on the number of casualties. Egypt said at least 30 people were killed, including 12 Egyptians, The Associated Press reported Friday. But an Israeli official later said he could confirm only 14 or 15 dead, including five or six Israelis. Earlier, Israel Radio had reported that at least 35 people were killed and more than 100 wounded.

[Israeli officials confirmed 22 deaths and thought at least four more victims were buried under the hotel ruins, the Associated Press later reported. The Egyptian Interior Ministry issued a statement saying the death toll had reached 22.]

In the largest explosion, early reports suggested that a truck bomb was driven into the Taba Hilton, a large hotel in a village just across the border and near the Israeli town of Eilat. Israel Radio said Friday morning that officials thought there was also a suicide bomber in the Hilton. The hotel was badly damaged by the blast and an ensuing fire, and 10 floors in the complex collapsed. There were reports of people buried in the rubble.

The two other explosions took place to the southwest, in the resort villages of Ras al-Sultan and Nuweiba. At least seven people died at Ras al-Sultan, most of them Egyptian workers, according to the Egyptian news media.

Last month, Israeli intelligence warned Israelis to keep out of the Sinai desert, citing vague but solid information about possible attacks.

No definitive claims of responsibility were publicized, though Agence France-Presse reported that someone claiming to be from a previously unknown group, Jamaa al-Islamiya al-Alamiya, or World Islamist Group, had taken responsibility for the Hilton blast in a telephone call to its bureau in Jerusalem. The caller said the attack was "in revenge for the Palestinian and Arab martyrs dying in Palestine and Iraq," the agency reported.

Part of the Hilton apparently crumbled immediately after the blast. "I heard a huge explosion," said Yigal Vakni, an Israeli at the Hilton who spoke to Israeli Army Radio. "The wall near me collapsed and people began to run." The blast was outside, he said. "When we went out we saw the shops and the internal wall of the hotel had collapsed."

Many people were lying on the ground, he said, "There is a lot of blood, a lot of screaming." An unnamed Israeli woman told Israeli television: "We immediately ran toward the beach, everyone running at once, and windows continue to shatter as we ran away. Entire families were wounded; they ran to the beach and were covered with blood."

Panicked Israelis rushed the border post, trying to flee Egypt, yelling at the border guards in Arabic that their belongings and documents were still in the burning hotel. Guards fired shots into the air to try to disperse them, before finally shutting the terminal temporarily. Roads were blocked, leaving vacationing Israelis at other hotels trapped.

Hadas Manor, an Israeli journalist staying at another Taba hotel, told Israeli television: "Most of the people here haven't come with their cars, so they depend on Egyptian taxis that are not operating now."

Television broadcasts of the border showed an Arab Israeli woman being carried by her husband. As he put her down, she collapsed, and medics rushed to her.

Israeli television also showed scenes of ambulances arriving at Eilat hospitals and unloading the wounded, many of them bandaged and bloody. Others, apparently in shock, were wheeled in on stretchers.

Israeli television interviewed a man, identified as Yaniv, who described the blast near Ras al-Sultan.

"We were sitting in a restaurant and suddenly heard a very powerful blast," the man said. "The electricity went out and rocks were jolted by the blast," he added. "We then saw a second explosion not far from the first blast; it was a ball of fire higher on the mountain. We immediately drove over to the site and found wounded people on the ground, there were Israelis among them, they were bleeding in the sand and there was no one there to help them."

The warning about possible attacks came in an unusual public alert from Avi Dichter, head of the Shin Bet intelligence service, not to go to Sinai resorts during the harvest festival season of Sukkot, which began last week. He said there was intelligence about a possible attack against Israeli tourists in Egypt's Sinai, where as many as 12,000 Israelis were traveling for the holidays, according to the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Since his warning, Israel has moved in force into the Gaza Strip that borders Egypt, trying to stop militant Palestinians like Hamas and Islamic Jihad from firing rockets into Israel.

But Israeli officials suggested that an attack of this magnitude would have been planned carefully from within Egypt and was not tied to the Gaza operation. Hamas, which has improving relations with Cairo, may not want to embarrass Egypt in this way, said Oded Granot, an Israeli commentator on Arab affairs. He suggested that Al Qaeda, an offshoot of the group or an Egyptian radical group might be responsible. In November 2002, attackers drove a car bomb into a hotel popular with Israelis in Mombasa, Kenya, killing 13, and fired missiles at an Israeli charter jet, which missed the target. Israeli officials speculated Thursday night that militants, finding it increasingly hard to attack Israelis in Israel, are choosing to attack them abroad. They may also be trying to cause strains between Israel and Egypt, which are trying to cooperate on the Israeli government plan for a withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

Israel also regularly complains that Egypt should do more to stop the smuggling of arms into Gaza and that Cairo does not take its security responsibilities seriously enough.

The Egyptians say that Israel would best protect itself by making serious progress toward peace with the Palestinians, rather than by accelerating the cycle of violence. But Egypt will not want the Israeli-Palestinian struggle to spill across the border and is expected by Israeli officials to move quickly to try to track down those responsible.

The attacks may also be intended to damage Egypt's tourism industry, on which it depends heavily. In 1997, after militants attacked tourists in Luxor and killed nearly 70 people, Egypt cracked down hard on Islamic Jihad.

The Egyptian government at first suggested the Hilton explosion was caused by gas canisters and initially prevented Israeli rescue workers without passports from crossing the border to the hotel. The Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, spoke with the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, and persuaded him to allow Israeli rescue workers to the scene without delay.

Yuval Steinitz, chairman of Parliament's foreign and defense committee, said: "What is sad is the fact that over recent months we have received incessant warnings concerning a possible attack in Sinai, and these warnings grew more and more clear, but the public failed to listen."

Taba is a small village dominated by the Hilton, originally built by the Israelis. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1982 but claimed that Taba was inside Israel according to the international border. International arbitrators disagreed, and Israel returned Taba, along with the expensive hotel, to Egypt in March 1989. Israeli and Palestinian negotiators have met numerous times at the hotel for peace talks.

Witnesses told similar stories of the attacks.

Hassan Elkhin told Israeli Channel 10: "After the blast, parts of the wall and ceiling began to crumble. I ran to look for my friends and found them downstairs in the casino. I pulled them out and we managed to leave the hotel. The walls around us collapsed, and there was fire around." Standing outside the hotel, he said, "we watched as the rooms disappeared, they collapsed one after the other."

When asked if he wasn't afraid to travel to Sinai, Mr. Elkhin said: "I heard the alerts and warnings, but I never believed anything could ever happen there, because, after all, every one there is Israeli.

"Still," he said, "it happened."



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/08/in...?oref=login&th

Ray

Mother Teresa funeral was organised by the Indian Army in Calcutta with all due regrads and ceremony. It was on international TV.

I was the Deputy Genenral Officer Commanding and I was given the task to organise it.

Since we received congratulatory letters from Heads of Govt who attended the same, I presume it was done well.

It maybe noted that the pall bearers were not all Christians nor the Guard of the Watch when the body was laid in state at Loreto House.