dabrownguy

GF already knows that. Thats why Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery is required.

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Officer of Engineers

20+ years of PLA watching, I've learned not to assume anything. Thing is that there are multiple personalities and multiple demands on a limited budget. The carrier crowd may have been given a face saving measure by having the planes but not the carrier.

They've gotten over that. The SUKHOIs and KILOs have become integral part of their arsenal.

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Chimo

gf0012-aust

but they have already built their own variations of each platform. the core products have provided springboards to "indiginous" platforms a lot faster than normal IMO....

Officer of Engineers

The Chinese are having problems with their basic J-11 production made from the blueprints. Most of their homebuilt stuff are made from kits shipped from Moscow.

Their newest sub SSK design, the YUAN, now seems to be a modified SOONG with a KLIO bow. My USN contacts doesn't think it's anymore quieter than the regular SOONG. Thus far, we have not seen new hulls laid and the Chinese are still waiting for the final 3 KILOs.

Archer

Trust me, the proportion of indigenous to import would become a tad lopsided etc, if Russia were to offer its grade-A stuff or if the European embargo were to be removed...what you have, is the classic case of a captive customer and the local industry making hay when the Sun shines. If the political issues preventing grade-A weapons imports into China were to disappear, you'd see that chinese military men were only human...and they'd purchase whatever they could afford (and which met their needs).

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Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

My bow is stretched for its task

gf0012-aust

that would seem to be supported by other (my) sources as well. the YUAN is not the generational leap thats been hyped up in the popular press.

acoustically they're not wonder machines by any means... the modified 90's are still a superior sub in comparison. (my own and thus cannot be publicly substantiated view)

gf0012-aust

Agree wholeheartedly. Necessity is driving procurement and development decisions. The bottom line being that they are relatively cashed up, have strong political will and intent and are prepared to take a development and construction path that would in normal procurement cycles not even get past "Tray 2"

China is undertaking short cycle build models because they can. It is not what I would regard as best practice and modelling though. Its an expensive learning and development curve and if the economy starts to tank, then political tolerance will degrade. There are a number of platforms and weapons systems across the spectrum that are going through this cycle. Its an expensive way to force feed platform development. Its not the best way IMO.

They are literally making hay while the sun shines.

tphuang

I'm really wondering which grade-A weapons you are talking about. They've offered su-33, su-34, su-35, backfire, bears, 5th generation fighter development. Other than Tu-160, not sure what they got left.

yeah, even Chinese only call Yuan 039A, so they still consider it as Song.

gf0012-aust

Just to clarify my prev, My agreement with archer on purchasing a-grade systems is because china is in a position to buy. Its a buyers market from her perspective in that the combat technology she wants from russia, she can get. at the time the russians needed the money - and china had it in spades. At an aviation level she's been able to fast track composite developments by the securing of commercial composite work via Boeing and Airbus. Ironically, the composite tech in current commercial jetliners is more sophisticated than what appeared in the F-117, so she's been able to sidestep the harder bits of the learning curve through contract building.

ditto for maritime tech where she's been able to secure tech from france, uk, germany etc on the basis of dual use adaptation.

I'm still trying to work out how she gets around the embargo issue when she's buying scottish built arrays for seabed and harbour defence.

wangrui961

Russia will sell more and more new weapons to China . They know China will have them early or late.Such as ....the aircraft engines , submarines, and so on...

Archer

Correction. The companies have offered all that. Whether the Russian Govt will allow it, is entirely a different matter. What goes into those products vs what Russia itself operates or sells to non-neighbours is also another example.

Take a look at the N001 V upgrade for the PLAAF Su-27 SKs for instance. They dont even have the digital signal processing upgrade the Russian Flankers received. Talking of the upgrade of the N001 series Cassegrain array radars on the Russian Flankers.

The Russian upgrade uses a dedicated low frequency digital receiver (N-001-09D-V) and asociated air-to-air tasked digital signal processor (Baget 55.02.06) for long range search, NCTR etc. In contrast, the PLAAF Sk upgrade (which received a limited upgrade for R-77 capability) cannot detect hovering choppers nor can it do Raid Assesment (or NCTR or Long Range Detection with VS modes using HPRF without FM)...as they're using the analog filtering banks of the N-019-09 low frequency receiver and not digital signal filtering which is only used for the air-to-ground radar modes. Basically, the radar still has the original 100 km range (which the much smaller aperture on the F-16 manages, with the APG-68V(9)) and the only air to air improvement is dual R-77 capability, plus some additional A-2-G modes via the "bypass switch".

Is it any surprise then that the PLAAF is plumping for local radars vs what NIIP got it to purchase? We are talking of 70's Cassegrain sets, whose upgrade was also access controlled by the Russians, locking them out of critical capabilities.

Scratch the label, and I daresay, even the ECM fits on most of the stuff sold to China has been tweaked similarly.

Archer

I daresay they want much more than russia is prepared to give. Russian companies are, govt is a different thingy- after all, russian developers themselves agreed to a S-300 variant transfer to the US, in exchange for money which they regarded as essential to keep their company running and develop better variants. But the Russian Govt has been risk averse, and one cant blame them. China is ramping up its military capability enormously, and it would be an irony of ironies if Russia were to be caught off guard having sold China far better than what it can itself afford to field.


Oh no doubt; the chinese have a purpose and they work to it. But I do wonder what an independent observer/ audit of the state owned firms would show. I daresay they are surviving because they have political support come what may. But thats ok, as long as china can afford to work with them and they deliver, irrespective of the cost.

Probably passes it off as civilian procurement. There are many aerospace and defence firms selling stuff to china, which can be easily classified as dual -use, and actually considering chinas stated purpose, its more or less single use.

tphuang

There is no question the N-001V is much more capable than N-001VE.
most export stuff are downgraded. But I would also say the export restriction eased a lot even within the last two years. In Zhuhai airshow, the Russians came out publically and mentionned China as someone they'd like to cooperated on 5th generation fighter development. This is a sharp change from even the last time Ivanov visited China in April, when he said su-34 is available, but was mute on 5th generation fighter development. And if you read one of the recent Janes article, they are saying that China is testing out Irbis radar for upgrade on mkk or they might just buy su-35 outright with Irbis. I personally prefer first option, but that's just me.

Archer

So now its two years? Clutching at straws here my friend. The Russians are no longer a fourth as desparate as they were before.

All export stuff downgraded? The Bars has all the features of the V, and many more besides, and comes with TOT as well. See the difference?


What stake they are offering to china in the fifth generation fighter, is of the essence. India for instance wants bottom up design participation.


Correction. KNAAPO is testing the Su-35 with an eye on China. Whether KNAAPO is allowed to do what it wants, is all upto the Russian Govt.

tphuang

generally, the export restrictions have been declining. It's not just about the Russians, the Chinese are not desperate either.

As for Bars vs V, well since Bars is not the export version of V, it naturally doesn't have to be less capable than V.
I would think that China would want cooperations on certain areas like RAM technology rather than the whole plane, since it has its own designs.
if su-33/su-34 is allowed to be exported to China, I don't see why the statements about su-35 would be invalid. But again, I have only read a short summary of the Janes article. I need to read the entire article for more information.