Officer of Engineers

Hmmm, very well thought out. Good points.

HORSE PUCKEY!

There is no way for you to even dig latrines for 20 million people before choleria set in. The logistics alone of finding enough shelter before people start dying from exposure. We're not talking about a steady flow of people moving out. We're talking a refugee flood.

Just finding enough water alone is going to be probamatic, let alone food.

As I've stated, you've never seen a refugee camp. You don't know the requirements. I asked you could you handle 100 people who showed up out of the blue. I did not ask about your block, your city. I asked you. Yeah, given time, you would have handle 100 people but you didn't get the point. Never mind the tomorrow. What do you do with 100 people NOW?

Get off it, you know squat here.

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Chimo

BenRoethig

Not a chance in hell. They want a communist state on their border.

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F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

essay

I,m a Chinese communist,but i have no idea about communism and capitalism.Could you tell me the true meaning of both of them?

Zhang Fei

I understand the military mindset - troops are essentially dependents who need feeding and housing - and they do expect to be housed and fed. In the civilian world, migrants understand that to work is to eat and to get shelter. This is how North Koreans have made it all the way to Thailand. This is how hundreds of millions of Chinese have made their way from one end of the country to the other. And if things get out of hand, China can always arrange a Marielito-style boat lift with South Korea. The Chinese don't do refugee relief. If these guys want a bite and a roof over their heads, they'll have to work for it. If they can't make it - China has well-equipped crematoriums to deal with the bodies of the deceased.

The idea of cholera being a problem is simply strange. China is a poor country. But most of the country has running water. And is electrified. Hygiene-wise, China's food preparation standards aren't up to par - as I've personally experienced. But cholera is not one of the problems you run into while in China.

kams

Zhang Fei, my two cents

You are comparing urban migration and immigration to a refuge situation (uncontrolled war time refugees, fleeing hunger and war). Urban migration happens gradually over a period of time. In your own example 6/7 of 100 million migrated to urabn area over a period of a decade. Immigration is strictly controlled.

Now imagine 10 million flooding your contryside in a week or less. What about their sanitation? food, water. There is no way any country can prepare or cope with that kind of situation. Poor sanitation means Cholera, Dysentry etc. whether its China, India, Europe or USA.

Tronic

pull out of Iraq and attack the bigger threat; NK... Iraq is just turning into a slaughter house anyways...

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-Touch The Sky With Glory

highsea

I disagree. I am actually kind of glad it happened. It clarifies the situation wrt the NorK nuke program, and puts China smack dab on the spot, since NorK is their client state, and it's their failed diplomacy that led to the test.

The ambiguity has been removed once and for all. If it turns out to be a failed nuke test (or even a successful one, as the Russians are claiming), it puts the rest of the world on notice. The test doesn't really change anything- either he had them or he didn't. Better to know for sure.

It's also very possible that the wave of anti-Americanism in South Korea will moderate.

It also gives us pretext to remove our forces from harms way and rely more on our own nuclear deterrent. Even if it was a nuke, Kim can't hit us directly, the threat is to his neighbors (providing we withdraw US forces, which we should). This would send a clear signal to China and to Kim that we are willing to bomb him into oblivion at the first sign of agression.

This is not a US problem- it will require a united effort to resolve. The UNSC has been offering lip service for too long. It's time to put up or shut up.

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My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

SLASH

.Are u kidding me.......What about the soldiers who sacrificed their life for the operation ???You can't let it all go in vain.

Zhang Fei

China is larger than the US. It has a major excess of housing. I know - I've looked at a number of residential properties in-country - by tagging along behind realtors down dark and dank alleyways - and checking out 8 story walk-ups. In making assumptions about cholera and dysentery, you are suggesting that people will not be able to find adequate housing and plumbing facilities. I beg to differ. A 20m influx does not mean that existing facilities have been destroyed, as happens during earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters. Existing facilities continue operating unhindered, although under a little strain.

We are living in the 21st century. Refugees can be transported by truck or by train. They can also be moved to South Korea - something that every respondent seems to be avoiding like the plague. If China asks, third countries, including the US, will also take at least hundreds of thousands of North Korean refugees or provide billions in aid money - just look at what happened after the tsunami. Note also that the US was providing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of fuel oil annually to the North Korean regime until their nuclear activities put a stop to this. I have little doubt the current US administration would pony up the cash to house the refugees as the price of toppling Kim Jong Il.

My conclusion is that the Chinese are pointing to the possibility of refugees merely as an excuse to avoid taking any action that might topple its North Korean proxy. Even if it decided not to assimilate them, the fact that North Korean refugees are automatically South Korean citizens and can go to South Korea just knocks the Chinese refugee argument flat on its back.

Canmoore

Im going to agree with the Colonel here.

NK and NW China are not exactly known for there hospitable climate, winter is fast approaching, whose to say that this refugee flood were to take place during winter? humans unprotected to the winter elements will not last very long. Can you find shelter for 20million before hypothermia, frost bite, disease and starvation takes its toll?

Canmoore

What atlas are you looking at???

I suggest you go back to highschool and brush up on your Geography my friend

America 9,629,091 square kilometers

China 9,596,960 square kilometers

If you are talking about population, then you should state so, otherwise it looks like you have no clue what you are talking about.

starsiege

so u are a communist without knowing anything about communism or any other forms or government! WOW. typical commie. im sure all u need to know is in ur little red book

kams

Sorry it doesn't work that way. You are talking about war time situation, refuge influx in huge numbers across a very small area over a short period of time. I am not talking about long term situation, talk about short term conditions in refugee camps.

You think these refugees will be allowed in housing complexes inside China's towns? Come on .

Even without War, Natural Disaster, water borne pandemics are not easy to control. You need to isolate, quarantine the affected people, remove the source (i.e clean water), prevent recontamination of clean source of water and food (i.e sanitation). You think this can be achieved with 20 million Refugees? You can't do it with even 100,000 . What do you think PLA will be doing? fighting a war or controlling refugees?

Even without any of these problems Cholera cases break out in all parts of the world, including China. Latest case was in September 2005 in the cities of Jiaxing and Huzhou. Now try to imagine controlling that with 20 million refugees.

Goatboy

Yes but economic migrants migrate to jobs, and they don't all crowd into one location. 20 million North Koreans won't be travelling to Beijing, they'll stay in Manchuria near their homeland, and among the few million ethnic Koreans currently living in Manchuria. The impact on Manchuria would be massive. These people won't have jobs, nor will they be particularly productive. It's akin to 20 Katrinas all at once. It won't bankrupt China, but it will certainly be felt, politically, economically, and be written about in the front pages of every major newspaper for a long time to come.

Goatboy

Since when do entire countries voluntarily depopulate themselves in their 10's of millions? At gunpoint is an option, but certainly the North Korean army isn't up to the task -- and besides, what would it do, force the North Korean population at gunpoint to get up and leave for the Chinese border, then when everybody's across they lay down their guns and join the refugees as "economic migrants"?

Would the average North Korean have no qualms about abandoning their culture, homeland, and try to assimilate (by spreading across the whole land) into Chinese culture immedietely upon crossing the border? -- or, like other vast movements of political refugees historically, would they congregate in huge refugee camps and wait, longing for the first chance to return to the Korean peninsula (once it's safe). I don't think enough Chinese would want to play the "adopt a stray Korean" game either.