troung

The Japanese (spit) are merely hoping all of their victims die over the next few years.

The allies forced Germany to face what it did and even then they still play a dance game... Japan wasn't even forced to go through that...

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To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

The Godfather

highsea

Every Prime Minister since the 70's doesn't qualify as gov't. apologies?
I think the comfort women were each paid about $20,000 and given free medical for life.

Japan paid South Korea $800 Million to settle all claims after the war.

Sure, they should probably do more, but they haven't just denied everything either, like people like to claim.

Hell, for all we know, that Wiki page is censored in ML China.

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My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

gunnut

Is it too much to ask the Japanese government not to pay official tribute to their war criminals? We don't see Gerhard Schroeder pay official tribute to Joseph Goebbels or Herman Goering.

No amount of money can make things right for the sufferings of the death camp victims or comfort women. All they ask for is that the Japanese government tell the world that they were wrong to start a war and not to worship their war criminals as heroes. And please don't whitewash their invasion of every single nation in east and southeast Asia during their imperial run.

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

highsea

I just think that's a gross exagerration. The shrine is for the 2.5 million Japanese soldiers that were killed in the war, not for the 14 or so that were executed for war crimes.

astralis

highsea,

no, and that uses the logic of the japanese themselves. as the japanese like to point out, the PM visits to yasukuni are merely "personal visits to pray for the dead".

certainly not all of them, and what restitution there were was NOT done in the name of the japanese government (it came from a PRIVATE fund). the japanese government refuses to take legal responsibility, and just BARELY acknowledges moral responsibility, with the latter coming only after mountains of evidence as well as the japanese themselves started to complain.

not to "settle all claims", it was just part of the diplomatic normalization cachet. and a good part of that 800 mil were loans.

i'm not saying they've denied everything. but almost everything they HAVE owned up to only came after immense pressure from both outside and within; the way they own up to it is privately and not state admissions of guilt; and even this is done half-heartedly, "i personally regret the actions of the past" as opposed to "we, the japanese, were guilty of such, such, and such; we are sorry; and we will make amends."

that is not an act of a contrite nation, and this is not what a responsible nation should do.

astralis

what i'd like to know is why, then, japanese politicians did NOT go to yasukuni PRIOR to the secret admission of those class-A war criminals in the 70s.

if they want to honor their war dead, that's fine. remove the damned bastards, and better yet, throw the ashes into a trash heap with curses. i'd bet you 100-1 if they did that, japanese relations with the other asian countries would get a LOT better overnight.

Goatboy

Seems an official apology from a Prime Minister could be construed as a government declaration of apology, I guess the Japanese Diet could also issue statements collectively.


It wouldn't take all that much money, maybe just a few billion. Japan should do it. After all, the US settled the claims of Japanese Americans interned for the war (a far lesser crime) a few years ago. Still, I have great respect for the Japanese nation, it's culture, the people, and the force for good it's represented since 1945. I'd like to see these things rectified nonetheless.



I expect even a nuclear armed North Korea won't make South Korea and Japan good buddies.

Goatboy

Looking in from the outside, it seems it's impossible for Japanese to both honor the 2.5 million dead soldiers, while simultaneously ignoring the 14 war criminals also buried at the shrine. Wouldn't take much effort to remove those 14. I'm certain most Japanese wouldn't mind a bit either, they'd read about the removal in the paper, then go back to their everyday lives.

Officer of Engineers

Those living in Japan. Those outside Japan got squat all.

That was government to government, as per the agreements sign with all the WWII victors, including the ROC and later, the PRC. However, all signatories stipulated that this was a government to government settling of accounts. It has nothing to do with private organizations nor individuals.

Only the Japanese claims that these agreements include private orgs and individuals.

Considering the leaks we've been getting, wouldn't do them very much good.

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Chimo

highsea

The Japanese Gov't cannot force the Yasukuni shrine to remove anyone (it's not like the actual remains are there anyway, the shrine only houses the "spirits"). The shrine is not a government facility, it's a private religious site. Shintoism says that the souls are purged of evil at the time of enshrinement, so removing them would amount to eternal condemnation.
Do you know this for a fact?

Besides, it would have probably been political suicide, considering the Japanese aversion at the time to anything warlike. It's only the resurgence of nationalism in Japan that makes it less controversial (in Japan) now.

The shrine dates back to the 19th century, and it honors the dead from 11 wars. People were visiting it long before WW2. It's only the politicizing of it that makes it an issue today. IOW, it's just an excuse for behavior that would be exhibited anyway.
I was under the understanding that the individual claims were taken over by the Korean Gov't. under the agreement. From the Wiki page:

Goatboy

I hadn't realized that ty for informing me So no Japanese remains exist at the shrine at all? Hmm, ok well I suppose removal of those 14 is a little more complicated then lol.

Dispelling with the "removing them would amount to eternal damnation" concept for the moment, do you have any suggestions on how to "cleanse" the Yasukuni shrine of those 14? Maybe just a few quick swipes with a chisel to erase their names from ... somewhere in the shrine? Maybe some "cleansing ceremony" to remove the souls? Just curious

gunnut

Then please use the words like "started a war" and "invasion" in their textbooks instead of "invited" and "security" or some other bullcrap to describe their role in WW2.

gunnut

Denounce these war criminals as what they are and expose their crimes for everyone to know would be a good start.

astralis

yes, i know this for a fact. the first PM visits were started by PM miki takeo in 1975, when the shrine-keepers (whose chairman is usually a ruling-party LDP member, including one class-A war criminal himself) had already begun to secretly debate whether or not to start honoring the convicted class-A'ers. (the shrine-keepers finally put them in 3 years later.) there's a good reason why the current emperor refuses to go anywhere near yasukuni- it's for this very reason that those war criminals are there. at least HE'S got morals and brains.

as the rest of the shrine, actually, i would like to mention that just the shrine itself is already an irritant, considering where and why most of those dead japanese were killed (let me give you a hint: the vast majority of the dead didn't die in japan, and weren't fighting to defend japan). the museum that whitewashes or alternatively glorifies everything the japanese have ever done makes it worse (and this includes the americans too: in the museum, the galleries state that it was america who forced japan into the war, stopping the poor japanese from "liberating" the rest of east asia from western imperialism).

yeah, guess which started politicizing it. no one forced a gun to koizumi's head and told him to go. furthermore, no one forced the japanese to make the temple a hallowed place that glorifies militaristic japan. funny how chinese and south korean relationships with japan were actually relatively decent before this whole yasukuni and history book brouhaha.

seriously, dude, if you ever go to japan go visit the place. it's quite accessible, right off the shinjuku line. see it with your own eyes. the galleries even have very nice english and chinese translations of their skewed and screwed-up "history".