troung

"No they were reverse engineered versions of it that were built because the French refused to deliver the real thing."

The USAf brought over the taken apart Mirage 5Js on C-141s and the Israelis put them together. Not even reverse engineered just putting a kit together.

"You dont see the contridiction in what you said, do you? You argue that the French army is unfairly discriminated against but all the Israeli army can do it beat up women and children. Wow...thats like saying all white people are racist."

Thats all the IDF basically does, beat on the Palestines. Unles you call that combat. Everyday it seems like the IDF kills some little kid with a Hellfire missile or shots some 10 year old in the head with a 5.56mm bullet. Now the USA in Iraq keeps civilain losses as low as it can and the IDF fired hellfires into markets.

"Uh...the Popeyes range is 200 km."

The HAVE LITE version, yes. The orginal (still in servie), no.

And I heard APACHE ranges of up to 100+ miles and SCALP EG of over 155 miles.

ZFBoxcar

the original is 200 km. This is from FAS and they dont update that often.

If most Iraqis hated the US as much as Palestinians do Israel, casulties would not be that low.

ZFBoxcar

Stop trying to prove a negative! Saying Israeli soldiers arent fighting a war doesnt prove they cant! Otherwise I could say that about any number of countries: China, Canada, Vietnam, Australia, Japan, Brazil, Germany, etc.

troung

"Stop trying to prove a negative!"

Firing hellfires into markets is sad but very true.

"Saying Israeli soldiers arent fighting a war doesnt prove they cant!"

Hey those 12 year olds are quite a tough enemy. I'm sorry I don't have to much respect for an "army" which hits little kids with anti tank weapons.

"Otherwise I could say that about any number of countries: China, Canada, Vietnam, Australia, Japan, Brazil, Germany, etc."

Hey we (Vietnam) have fought nothing but the best (USA, China, France).

"If most Iraqis hated the US as much as Palestinians do Israel, casulties would not be that low."

Well if the USA wanted to speed up the Iraqi requitment drive they coudl use IDF tactics..................

ZFBoxcar

wow, my point totally sailed over your head. It doesnt matter that you fought the US 30-40 years ago. You arent fighting anyone now which means that by your logic, you cant. Israels fighting wars obviously has no relevance to you because you keep obsessing over 12 year olds so why should your previous conflicts be relevant? Shouldnt it be what youre doing now? You arent fighting anybody so why should you be able to sit back and say Vietnam is better at fighting than Israel? Niether country is doing real hard fighting right now so explain to me how Israel is somehow less skilled.

Sorry, Im ranting. If Im not being clear this is it, plain and simple: Not fighting an enemy doesnt mean you cant, if that were the case, all nations at peace would be incapable of fighting.

Israel doesnt purposely kill civllians and Im not saying it because they are noble or whatever. In a purely practical sense, why kill civillians on purpose? Israel gains absolutly nothing from it, every news report of violence hurts the economy, and it makes Israel look bad.

Palestinians hated Israel before they got there (the creation of Israel being the motive for that) so it had nothing to do with Israeli tactics. Israeli tactics were a response to the uprising.

I never called it a war. If the IDF was the brutal satan you make it out to be all the Palestinians would be dead rather than 2000-3000, most of them combatants (and plz dont give some snide remarke asking if a kid tossing a rock counts as a combatant in the IDF's eyes) along with about 800 Israeli casualties, most of them civillian. If Israel wanted, they could make sure they never had another casualty by declaring all out war on the Palestinians...again I know its not all kindness, its also PR.

Just so there is no confusion, Im against the occupation, Im not defending the occupation itself, but the ones who are forced to carry it out. Im in favour of a wall on the green line (and I think the government will eventually listen to the US and alter the plan so that it does follow the green line). That way it wont matter if the terrorists try to keep up the suicide bombings, they wont have the ability too.

troung

"You arent fighting anyone now which means that by your logic, you cant."

Should I post articles from Israels failed Lebanon adventure?

The fact that the IDF could not hold Sotuhern Lebanon?

"You arent fighting anybody so why should you be able to sit back and say Vietnam is better at fighting than Israel?"

Hey we are sitting on a great miliary record so keep Vietnam out of this.

"Israel doesnt purposely kill civllians and Im not saying it because they are noble or whatever. In a purely practical sense, why kill civillians on purpose? Israel gains absolutly nothing from it, every news report of violence hurts the economy, and it makes Israel look bad."

Hellfires in market places.

"That way it wont matter if the terrorists try to keep up the suicide bombings, they wont have the ability too."

Freedom fighters. OBL is a terrorist.

ZFBoxcar

The IDF initial invasion of Lebanon was successful but it just couldnt handle the guerrila warefare (or it could, but Israeli mothers kept protesting till the government agreed to pull out their children).

Touche :roll: This record has not had to deal with any problems in the last 30 years and so has dubious value.

Suicide bombers on buses and market places

This confirms what ive been thinkin for a while. Your mockery of the IDF has more to do with a political hatred towards Israel than real debate about the state of Israels armed forces. I know you wont admit to this, and since we have exhausted all military debates (mirages, t-64s, etc), can we let this thread die? I think it was a rather laughable thread anyways because the US and Israel will never fight and if they did, the outcome would be obvious anyways.

Gio

Actually, nevermind, we're all civilized, carry on.

Anon

The French are fags.

I doubt highly that they could pull off any sort of invasion of Israel. And France really doesn't have world wide power projection capability.

You need at least three carriers for that. At LEAST.

bigross86

The French could mobilize and laugh their enemy into submission...

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Stinger

Thats kind of funny actually Troung, I wonder what the Montagnards would have to say about your position.... that is if they hadn't been all but wipped out by the Vietnamese.

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Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

bigross86

I don't know too much about Vietnam, but isn't what the Viet Cong did very similar to what the Pal's are doing today?

troung

"Thats kind of funny actually Troung, I wonder what the Montagnards would have to say about your position.... that is if they hadn't been all but wipped out by the Vietnamese."

Montagnards, ha.

Who cares? They weren't that good anyways.

"The IDF initial invasion of Lebanon was successful but it just couldnt handle the guerrila warefare (or it could, but Israeli mothers kept protesting till the government agreed to pull out their children)."

Still a loss.

"Suicide bombers on buses and market places"

To force the IDF to leave thier terriorty, that a fine tactic becuase it got world wide coverage to thier issue.

"This record has not had to deal with any problems in the last 30 years and so has dubious value."

We fought China and Cambodia since the end of the war with the USA and the South. In fact we fought them at the same time.

"I doubt highly that they could pull off any sort of invasion of Israel. And France really doesn't have world wide power projection capability."

Anyone who would fight the IDF would no doubt get bases from the Arabs.

"can we let this thread die?"

Fine, this is the last thing I type.

bigross86

Since when is mass murder of civilians acceptable as a PR tactic?

What happened to Red China being on the same side as Vietnam during the war?

Not quite. The Muslims hate Israel more, but they still hate most of the Western World anyway.

Stinger

Apparently you don't. So in your mind its ok to wipe out a bunch of people "no one" cares about. and its ok for the PLO to suicide bomb markets with non combatants but if the Isrealis, in an attempt to get the terrorist behind such bombings, accidentally kill a woman or child then they are pathetic and warmongering? Sorry this makes little sense to me, and sounds more than slightly hippocritical.