China is arming world's worst regimes - Page 4

kams · 09-25-2006, 21:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

ROTFLMAO!!!! No.

There is something called the Sergeant's Network ... and that cannot be hacked. I know. I tried.

Sir,
With all due respect to your hacking skills, only computer which is fully secure is one which is not connected to a network, and what good is that computer except to play games

.

Outside US, some of the best computer programmers are in Russia, China and India. The best US programmers are employed by Video Game industry (yes, no longer by NSA).

Some excerpts from couple of publications;

Quote:

Specific Targeting Analysis of Network Attacks Against Logistics

There are two macro-level targets for Chinese computer network operations: military network information and military information stored on networks. CNA seeks to use the former to degrade the latter. Like U.S. doctrine, Chinese CNA targeting focuses specifically on “enemy C2 centers,” especially “enemy information systems.” Of
these information systems, PLA writings and interviews suggest that logistics computer systems are a top military target. According to one PLA source, “we must zero in on the...crucial links in the system that move enemy troops... such as information systems.”28 Another source writes, “we must attack system information accuracy, timeliness of information, and reliability of information.”29 In addition to logistics computer systems, another key military target for Chinese CNA is
military reliance on civilian communications systems. These concepts, combined with the earlier analysis of the PLA view that the main U.S. weakness is the deployment phase, lead PLA IO theorists to conclude that U.S. dependence on computer systems, particularly logistics systems, is a weak link that could potentially be exploited through CNA. Specifically, Chinese authors highlight DoD’s need to use the civilian backbone and unclassified computer networks (e.g., NIPRNET [Non-Secure Internet Protocol Router Network]) as an Achilles’ heel. There is also recognition of the fact that operations in the Pacific are especially reliant on precisely coordinated transportation, communications, and logistics networks, given the “tyranny of distance” in the theater. PLA strategists believe that a disruptive CNA against these systems or affiliated civilian systems could potentially delay or degrade U.S. force deployment to the region while allowing China to maintain a degree of plausible deniability. The Chinese are right to highlight the NIPRNET as an attractive
and accessible target, unlike its classified counterparts. It is attractive because it contains and transmits critical deployment information in the all-important TPFDL (time-phased force deployment list), which is valuable for intelligence gathering about U.S. military operations as well as a lucrative target for disruptive attacks. In terms of accessibility, it was relatively easy to gather data about the NIRPNET
from open sources, at least prior to 9/11. Moreover, the very nature of the system is the source of its vulnerabilities, since it has to be unclassified and connected to the greater global network, albeit through protected gateways. To migrate all of the NIPRNET to a secure, airgapped network would likely tax the resources and bandwidth of DoD’s military networks.

DoD’s classified networks are an attractive but less accessible target for the Chinese. On the one hand, these networks would be an intelligence gold mine and are likely a priority CNE target. On the other hand, they are a less attractive CNA target, thanks to the difficulty of penetrating its defenses. Any overall Chinese military strategy predicated on a high degree of success in penetrating these networks during crisis or war is a high-risk venture and increases the chances of
failure of the overall effort to an unacceptable level. Moreover, internal Chinese writings on information warfare show no confidence in China’s ability to get inside NCW aboard deployed ships or other self-contained operational units. Instead, the literature is focused on preventing the units from deploying in the first place and thereafter breaking the C4I linkages between the ships and their headquarters.
Chinese CNE/CNA operations against logistics networks could have a detrimental impact on U.S. logistics support to operations. Chinese CNE activities directed against U.S. military logistics networks could reveal force deployment information, such as the names of ships deployed, readiness status of various units, timing and destination of deployments, and rendezvous schedules. This is especially important for the Chinese in times of crisis, since they utilize U.S. military Web sites and newspapers as principal sources of deployment information in peacetime. An October 2001 People’s Daily article, for example, explicitly cited U.S. Navy Web sites for information about the origins, destination, and purpose of two CVBGs exercising in the South China Sea. Because the quantity and quality of deployment
information on open Web sites has been dramatically reduced after 9/11, the intelligence benefits of exploiting the NIPRNET have become even more paramount.30 CNA could also delay resupply to the theater by misdirecting stores, fuel, and munitions, corrupting or deleting inventory files, and thereby hindering mission capability. The advantages to this strategy are numerous: (1) it is available
to the PLA in the near term; (2) it does not require the PLA to be able to attack or invade Taiwan with air or sea assets; (3) it has a reasonable level of deniability, provided that the attack is sophisticated enough to prevent tracing; (4) it exploits perceived U.S. casualty aversion, overattention to force protection, the tyranny of distance in the Pacific, and U.S. dependence on information systems; and (5) it
could achieve the desired operational and psychological effects: deterrence of U.S. response or degrading of deployments.

BTW, what is ROTFLMAO?

Archer · 09-25-2006, 21:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I'm the moderator at China-Defense.com Forum, I'm well versed in all of the PLA's dealings. However, the Indian members have been quoting me lately in that "The Chinese are perfectly willing to fight India down to the last Pakistani."

Now, do you realize the strategic implications of that?

The counterpoint to that question is how far is China willing to go? China has shown that its selling products @ fair market prices, still lower than stuff from the west, to Pak & is hence able to hand Pak some amount of parity. But Pak has been able to afford all this thanks to the windfall after 9/11. If things do change, can China afford to prop up Pak on its own coin? India'smilitary modernization will continue thoroughly, since its based on a sustainable economic footing.

**Parihaka** · 09-25-2006, 21:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kams

BTW, what is ROTFLMAO?

Roll On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

kams · 09-25-2006, 21:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parihaka

Roll On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

Aha, Thanks, my first thought was its some kind of reference to my ancestors

, but the I decided OOE is too much of a gentleman for that. I was right.

BTW The best Programmers with best resources are in US. Forgot to finish of my sentence in my above reply.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-25-2006, 21:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kams

Sir,
With all due respect to your hacking skills, only computer which is fully secure is one which is not connected to a network, and what good is that computer except to play games

.

Who said anything about computers?

kams · 09-25-2006, 21:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Who said anything about computers?

Err oh sh*t, you had me there.

ROTFLMAO

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-25-2006, 21:34 PM

Computers does aid in alot of things but you still need a man to unload the plane and load the truck. The Sergeants in charge don't have time to read the computer list at every junction. They have a "feel" on who needs what, where, and when and that is based upon the CO's intent. If they know a specific division is going to lead the strike, they'll load up that division and relied on the division's logistics officer to deligate to the various brigades and finally down to battalion.

Often times, the computer/paper work is done AFTER the fact. So, no, no hacker is not going to disrupt that network.

Archer · 09-26-2006, 00:40 AM

For India to get serious about any war, beyond the usual three week- month long slap Pakistan around or border conflict with China, it has to reform its defence production agency, namely the OFB.

Srirangan · 09-26-2006, 13:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

I listened to a BBC Business report today morning, and looks like PRC is in the forefront of hacking networks throughout the world (particularly US DoD and UK CINS). No only did they get in get out in 10 mins (that number was real), they also installed backdoor trojans in almost all of the machines to use them later.
Now I dont know the implication on the US war fighting capability.

Chinese companies are also involved in espionage. Some of the Chinese employees in a UK company were responsible in transferring sensitive info to PRC, and they said they are not the only ones.

I wouldn;'t worry too much about Chinese internet hackers. I'ld expect DOD to have a local network, like the WAN the Indian Army recently built.

You know, private networks that aren't physcially connected to any outside network. You certainly can't hack those from the Internet, if at all, you'll need inside access. Good encryption can ensure obfuscation of such leak, even if their occur.

Srirangan · 09-26-2006, 13:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Computers does aid in alot of things but you still need a man to unload the plane and load the truck. The Sergeants in charge don't have time to read the computer list at every junction. They have a "feel" on who needs what, where, and when and that is based upon the CO's intent. If they know a specific division is going to lead the strike, they'll load up that division and relied on the division's logistics officer to deligate to the various brigades and finally down to battalion.

Often times, the computer/paper work is done AFTER the fact. So, no, no hacker is not going to disrupt that network.

Not for long Sir. 20-30 years, Ai would be doing most jobs.

Imagine large surveillence and defense UAVs/UCAVs. Patrolling the edges of the airspace, automatically. No humans up in the air, but down at the control centre they'ld be commanding and operating these babes.

A lot of these jobs will be outsourced to AI and robots.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-26-2006, 23:01 PM

I don't know if that is a good idea. The 1st thing the AI may decide is that we're too stupid to live.

kams · 09-26-2006, 23:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I don't know if that is a good idea. The 1st thing the AI may decide is that we're too stupid to live.

I sure don't want to live in a world where a fu****g machine decision maker (inyelligent or not).

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-26-2006, 23:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

f things do change, can China afford to prop up Pak on its own coin?

China is willing to spend lives to make a political point. A few coins by comparison is damned cheap.

Srirangan · 09-27-2006, 00:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I don't know if that is a good idea. The 1st thing the AI may decide is that we're too stupid to live.

LOL, Too many movies! Ofcourse all decisions would be made by humans at the command center, somewhere inside a bunker.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-27-2006, 00:59 AM

Running into a middle of a firefight is not exactly intelligent.

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09-25-2006, 21:34 PM	#52 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,072 Country:	Computers does aid in alot of things but you still need a man to unload the plane and load the truck. The Sergeants in charge don't have time to read the computer list at every junction. They have a "feel" on who needs what, where, and when and that is based upon the CO's intent. If they know a specific division is going to lead the strike, they'll load up that division and relied on the division's logistics officer to deligate to the various brigades and finally down to battalion. Often times, the computer/paper work is done AFTER the fact. So, no, no hacker is not going to disrupt that network.

09-26-2006, 00:40 AM	#53 (permalink)
Archer *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-13-03 Posts: 2,888	For India to get serious about any war, beyond the usual three week- month long slap Pakistan around or border conflict with China, it has to reform its defence production agency, namely the OFB.

09-26-2006, 23:01 PM	#56 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,072 Country:	I don't know if that is a good idea. The 1st thing the AI may decide is that we're too stupid to live.

09-27-2006, 00:59 AM	#60 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,072 Country:	Running into a middle of a firefight is not exactly intelligent.

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