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Thread: Hey Indians, want some no questions asked yellowcake?

  1. #286
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    No I don't. Either way, it is just a theoretical essay about what it's supposed to be
    When asked for facts (orbat and TOE), then it is a theoretical essay.

    difficult for me to take your nationalistic rant seriously.
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  2. #287
    Officer of Engineers
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    Look,

    General Sundarji, arguebly, the pioneer in Indian strategic nuclear thought, stated outright that Indian nuclear weapons was NOT in response to the Chinese. And of all the stupid, idiotic, and dumb outlook, you seemed to gloss over the primary country responsible for the Pakistani nuke - India.

    Once India got the nuke, there was no way in hell Pakistan was not going to get the nuke. Look into the mirror before jumping up and down about China. Yes, China helped but as I have shown time and time again, it doesn't take much to get gun type nukes and Pakistan would get those without Chinese help.

    As General Sundarji put it, it is way too late to make South Asia nuclear free but perhaps we can make it nuclear safe. And you yourself admit that you're no military expert. Forgive me if I find your statement that India is seeking a nuclear offense posture a load of crap, especially when you accuse a General Officer of lying and take the word of a desk politician over those of the men on the ground.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 16 Jan 12, at 10:58.

  3. #288
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    No their is no indication of any kind of a two front war, till date afaik.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui
    When asked for facts (orbat and TOE), then it is a theoretical essay.
    You mean that what I can see is all you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui
    difficult for me to take your nationalistic rant seriously
    Not quite weasel enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    General Sundarji, arguebly, the pioneer in Indian strategic nuclear thought, stated outright that Indian nuclear weapons was NOT in response to the Chinese.
    I do not think you understand indias recollections of the indo-china war and the global pressure over india in the 1971 bangladesh war. There is no "one" reason behind nuclearization of india. The idea was always there but collective historical incidents forced india to put immediate priority in that area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    And of all the stupid, idiotic, and dumb outlook, you seemed to gloss over the primary country responsible for the Pakistani nuke - India.
    That's not how india looks at it.

    If india really wanted to put its foot up the neighbours a$$ for all the irritation then it would have done that in 47, 65 or 71. Thoroughly!! International condemnation be damned. But it didn't.

    India and pakistan would have squabbled off to eternity without anyone raising the stakes but then somebody did raise the stakes. Pakistani nukes inflicts a cost on india. Who helped raise the stakes?

    If china is not the reason why india developed nukes then why did china give nukes to pakistan? How can china involve itself one day and claim non-involvement the next day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Forgive me if I find your statement that India is seeking a nuclear offense posture a load of crap
    No problem. I understand you concerns. I think you secretly wish that china had no involvement in the indo-pak conflict.
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    nvishal Reply

    ...That's all I can say.

    What you say isn't much when compared to the harsh reality of Indian-PRC economic relations. Both nations have bigger fish to fry.

    India wrt to China-Pakistan or China-Tibet? BUSINESS, first and foremost, as usual.

    It starts and ends there. The numbers say so. Nothing has escalated so much in the last decade as trade between these two behemoths. That curve is exponential. Everything else, including Tibet and Pakistan, is sequential and arithmetic by India's calculations.
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  6. #291
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    Originally Posted by xinhui
    difficult for me to take your nationalistic rant seriously
    Not quite weasel enough

    The GOI disagrees.


    India, China seek to establish border management mechanism
    Elizabeth Roche, elizabeth.r@livemint.com

    India and China are expected to finalize a mechanism for managing their undemarcated border during the ongoing meeting between the representatives of the two sides in New Delhi, a government offical said on condition of anonymity.

    National security adviser Shivshankar Menon is heading the Indian delegation to the 15th round of the Special Representatives’ meeting on Monday and Tuesday, with visiting state councillor Dai Bingguo heading the Chinese team.

    Territorial disputes have been a major irritant in bilateral relations between the two nations and led to brief but bitter war in 1962.

    The two-day talks, which started on Monday, were rescheduled for this month, after being called off in November when India refused to accede to a Chinese demand to cancel an international Buddhism conference in New Delhi that the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, was supposed to attend.

    The current round of talks were significant for several reasons, said Rup Narayan Das, senior fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses.

    “The first is both sides will be looking at concluding a mechanism to establish direct communication to ensure greater coordination for better border management,” Das said, referring to a new structure—suggested by Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao during his December 2010 visit to India—that will be headed by officials of the ministry of external affairs, but will include the military and other arms of government.

    The new mechanism being worked out along with agreements signed in 1993, 1996 and 2005 were aimed at stabilizing the border and “the eventual solution of the border dispute”, Das said.

    Countless rounds of talks to settle the dispute between the two sides have not resulted in the demarcation of the frontier. As it stands, China claims 90,000 sq. km of Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh and occupies around 38,000 sq. km in Jammu and Kashmir, which India claims as its territory. Also, under the China—Pakistan “boundary agreement signed in March 1963, Pakistan illegally ceded 5,180 sq. km of Indian territory in PoK (Pakistan-occupied Kashmir) to China”, foreign minister S.M. Krishna told Parliament two years ago. In a recent statement, Menon had described the boundary question as a “difficult issue” that has remained unsolved.

    The current round of talks was also important because “this will probably be the last meeting in which Dai will participate as special envoy on the border talks ahead of the Chinese leadership change”, Das said, referring to the top Communist Party of China leadership overhaul next year. President Hu Jintao is expected to be replaced in 2013 by Xi Jinping, vice-chairman of the powerful Central Military Commission. India is keen to hold a dialogue on the border ahead of Hu’s visit to India in March for the Brazil-Russia-India-China-South Africa (Brics) meeting. “A meeting between Hu and the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is on the cards when the Chinese President comes,” said a person close to the development.

    Ahead of Monday’s talks, Dai who has been China’s special envoy for the border talks since 2003, struck a positive note speaking of China’s desire for friendly ties. “Our Indian friends may have confidence in China’s tremendous sentiment of friendship towards India. While working hard to develop itself, China is fully committed to developing long-term friendship and cooperation with India,” Dai wrote in an article in The Hindu newspaper published on Monday.

    “There does not exist such a thing as China’s attempt to ‘attack India’ or ‘suppress India’s development.’ China will remain committed to the path of peaceful development,” he said.
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  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvishal View Post
    I do not think you understand indias recollections of the indo-china war and the global pressure over india in the 1971 bangladesh war. There is no "one" reason behind nuclearization of india. The idea was always there but collective historical incidents forced india to put immediate priority in that area.
    Those events may have expedited Smiling Buddha, but the test was going to take place anyways, sooner or later.

    This is what Nehru had to say in 1946, "As long as the world is constituted as it is, every country will have to devise and use the latest devices for its protection. I have no doubt India will develop her scientific researches and I hope Indian scientists will use the atomic force for constructive purposes. But if India is threatened, she will inevitably try to defend herself by all means at her disposal."

    At the time of those words, neither Pakistan nor the PRC existed.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvishal View Post
    I do not think you understand indias recollections of the indo-china war and the global pressure over india in the 1971 bangladesh war. There is no "one" reason behind nuclearization of india. The idea was always there but collective historical incidents forced india to put immediate priority in that area.
    I could not give two shits how YOU LOOK AT IT. I've read the decision makers. I've read their reasons. AND YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nvishal View Post
    No problem. I understand you concerns. I think you secretly wish that china had no involvement in the indo-pak conflict.
    I HAVE AN EXTREME PROBLEM! YOU ARE CALLING MY FRIENDS, INDIAN OFFICERS, LIARS! IN FACT YOU HAVE! YOU HAVE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED MAJ DCL!

    And I find it EXTREMELY INSULTING OF WHAT YOU WROTE SINCE IT WAS I WHO POSTED EVIDENCE OF CHINESE PROLIFERATION ON THIS FORUM! YOU ARE A DUMB ASS WHO DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION AND FRANKLY, YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND NUCLEAR WARFARE!

    India is nowhere near a nuclear offense posture ... and I am freaking too tired to explain why but to suffice to say that NO INDIAN ARMY OFFICER ON WAB AGREES WITH YOU ... and frankly, since you accused an Indian General of lying, I don't think I need to explain anything to a freaking troll!

    FINE, YOU WANT TO NUKE PAKISTAN AND CHINA. AND TRUTH BE TOLD, THE US, FRANCE, AND THE UK ... AND RUSSIA IF SHE PISSES OFF!

    GOOD FOR YOU! VOTE ACCORDINGLY.

    DON'T BE SO SURPRISE WHEN OTHERS VOTE AGAINST YOU, ESPECIALLY INDIAN OFFICERS!
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Jan 12, at 05:18.
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  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2
    What you say isn't much when compared to the harsh reality of Indian-PRC economic relations.
    I've already mentioned that the trade in uneven in chinas favour. Indian businesses can't compete with chinese undercuts. However, the goods are mostly of dump quality. Any termination of chinese goods from entering india will have no effect on the indian public or economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui
    The GOI disagrees.

    India, China seek to establish border management mechanism
    India and pakistan do this all the time. Politics and military are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    Those events may have expedited Smiling Buddha, but the test was going to take place anyways, sooner or later.

    At the time of those words, neither Pakistan nor the PRC existed.
    That is a part of what I've tried to say. Yes, India would have pursued for development of nuclear weapons even in the absence of china or pakistan or any other country. That repeated wars with neighbours only sped the development process.
    Last edited by nvishal; 18 Jan 12, at 16:42.
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  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    I could not give two shits how YOU LOOK AT IT. I've read the decision makers. I've read their reasons. AND YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM!!!
    No I'm not. I've tried giving you an indian perspective. You are free to agree or disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    I HAVE AN EXTREME PROBLEM! YOU ARE CALLING MY FRIENDS, INDIAN OFFICERS, LIARS! IN FACT YOU HAVE! YOU HAVE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED MAJ DCL!
    All I did was give you a pragmatist interpretation of nuclear proliferation wrt china-pakistan and the logical outcome if indias threshold(nuclear?) was crossed.

    I do not have anything personal against your friends nor do I know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    And I find it EXTREMELY INSULTING OF WHAT YOU WROTE SINCE IT WAS I WHO POSTED EVIDENCE OF CHINESE PROLIFERATION ON THIS FORUM!
    I did not know it was you who posted evidence of chinese proliferation on this forum and nor have I read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    YOU ARE A DUMB ASS WHO DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION AND FRANKLY, YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND NUCLEAR WARFARE!
    Okay

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    India is nowhere near a nuclear offense posture
    But I never said that it was. India won't be able to cover even 5% of the land mass of china with its public and private inventory. But nor can china. So when a cost does inflict, it automatically becomes a race to incur as much cost as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    NO INDIAN ARMY OFFICER ON WAB AGREES WITH YOU
    When did the indian officers of WAB make a guest appearance between you and me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    and frankly, since you accused an Indian General of lying,
    I don't follow WAB as much as you like to believe. I'm aware that DCL has some connection with the indian military. I was told that lemontree is also connected. I don't keep a track of their comments so I don't know what exactly I lied about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    FINE, YOU WANT TO NUKE PAKISTAN AND CHINA. AND TRUTH BE TOLD, THE US, FRANCE, AND THE UK ... AND RUSSIA IF SHE PISSES OFF!
    I think you are just angry at me for summarizing chinas immersion in the indo-pak conflict.

    Since this is starting to turn into a yelling match, I'm withdrawing.
    Last edited by nvishal; 18 Jan 12, at 16:44.
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  11. #296
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    again, facts on the ground disagree with you. Trade is trade and money is money, there is no such thing as "dump quality" money.

    I've already mentioned that the trade in uneven in chinas favour. Indian businesses can't compete with chinese undercuts. However, the goods are mostly of dump quality. Any termination of chinese goods from entering india will have no effect on the indian public or economy.
    Billionaire Anil Ambani’s Reliance Taps Chinese Loans After Stock Plunge
    Q
    By Anurag Joshi and Mehul Srivastava - Jan 17, 2012 10:29 PM PT

    Billionaire Anil Ambani

    Ambani’s Reliance Communications Ltd. yesterday said it will borrow $1.18 billion from lenders including China Development Bank Corp., Export-Import Bank of China and Industrial & Commercial Bank of China. Photographer: Adeel Halim/Bloomberg

    Indian billionaire Anil Ambani is tapping Chinese lenders for a second time in less than a year after a decline in the value of his flagship company left him with almost $1 billion of convertible bonds to repay by March.

    Ambani’s Reliance Communications Ltd. (RCOM) yesterday said it will borrow $1.18 billion from lenders including China Development Bank Corp (SDBZ)., Export-Import Bank of China and Industrial & Commercial Bank of China. The proceeds will help India’s second-largest mobile-phone operator redeem convertible debt maturing on March 1. The shares are trading 87 percent below the price at which the notes can be switched to equity.

    The Chinese loans will help Reliance Communications cap its interest expense for the borrowing at 5 percent even after dollar funding costs for Indian companies rose 171 basis points in 2011 to 6.83 percent, according to HSBC Holdings Plc. The credit helps China expand its role in the world’s second-fastest growing major economy that’s also competing with the north Asian nation for resources, said Erica Downs, a fellow at The Brookings Institution.

    “Without the Chinese, they would have been in big trouble,” said Juergen Maier, a Vienna-based fund manager at Raiffeisen Capital Management that oversees about $1.1 billion of emerging-market assets. “The Chinese are the last lenders left that will lend them large amounts of money at reasonable interest rates.”

    Reliance Communications shares gained 1.9 percent to 90.5 rupees in Mumbai at 10:30 a.m., compared with a conversion price of 661 rupees for the debt. The shares declined 52 percent in dollar terms last year making it the worst-performing stock in the 28-member MSCI AC Asia Pacific, excluding-Japan, Telecommunication Services Index.
    ‘Buying Interest’

    The yield on the Mumbai-based company’s notes issued in 2007 dropped 19 percentage points to 11.78 percent yesterday, the lowest level since June 9, according to prices provided by Barclays Plc. Indian companies have a record $5.3 billion of convertible notes maturing this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

    “If Reliance Communications had defaulted, the whole Indian convertible market would have collapsed,” Raj Kothari, a convertible trader at Sun Global Investments Ltd. in London, said in a telephone interview. “Sentiment has improved in Indian convertibles and we are seeing buying interest from investors.”

    The loan to Reliance Communications will have an “extended” seven-year maturity with an interest cost of 5 percent, according to yesterday’s statement.
    ‘Balance Sheet Stretched’

    The transaction “can at best be seen as an indicator of Reliance Communications ability to raise debt in the market, or a stamp of confidence in Reliance Communications by the Chinese banks,” Rohit Chordia and Shyam M, analysts at Kotak Institutional Equities, wrote in a note to clients today. The company’s “balance sheet remains stretched.”

    The company plans to sell assets to repay debt. Reliance Communications plans to raise as much as $1.5 billion through a Singapore listing of its FLAG Telecom submarine cable assets, said a person with knowledge of the matter, declining to be identified because the process is private.

    The company, which had its credit rating cut one notch to the third-highest level by ICRA Ltd. (ICRA), the local unit of Moody’s Investors Service in June, has $4.8 billion of debt due by 2021, Bloomberg data show.

    Reliance Communications’ earnings before tax would have slumped 50 percent in the year ending March had the mobile- phone operator refinanced its debt at the 12 percent rate that AAA-rated corporates have to pay on rupee-denominated loans, Edelweiss Securities Ltd. wrote in a note to clients on Nov. 22
    Chinese Equipment

    Ambani sought help from Chinese lenders last year as well. Reliance Communications on March 9 said it will borrow 87 billion rupees ($1.7 billion) from a group led by China Development Bank to refinance the purchase of third-generation airwaves and buy equipment.

    Ambani’s Reliance Power Ltd. (RPWR) on Sept. 30 got approval from India’s central bank to borrow $1.1 billion from Chinese lenders to build a 3,960-megawatt power project. Ambani’s companies have agreed to borrow as much as $15 billion from lenders in the north Asian nation.


    Reliance Communications used most of the loans to repay costly debt, according to a Dec. 15, 2010, statement. The rest is being used to buy Chinese-made equipment, including $600 million for telecommunications gear from Huwaei Technologies Co. and ZTE Corp. (000063), the company said.
    Chinese Goals

    Ambani signed an agreement in October 2010 to borrow as much as $12 billion from Chinese banks to buy power equipment from Shanghai Electric Group for Reliance Power even as India’s power ministry endorsed a plan last month to triple import duty to help local manufacturers compete with Chinese rivals.

    “Chinese banks try and balance two goals to expand their loan portfolio and if that can happen while supporting Chinese diplomacy, then it’s even better,” Downs, a fellow at the John L. Thornton China Center at the Washington, D.C.-based Brookings Institution, said on Jan. 11. “CDB, as a state bank, think of themselves as a sort of development finance corporation, and borrowers see them as a lender of last resort.”

    To contact the reporters on this story: Anurag Joshi in Mumbai at ajoshi53@bloomberg.net; Mehul Srivastava in New Delhi at msrivastava6@bloomberg.net

    To contact the editor responsible for this story: Shelley Smith at ssmith118@bloomberg.net
    Last edited by xinhui; 19 Jan 12, at 03:05.
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  12. #297
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    no, you are too nationalistic to see the truth

    Since this is starting to turn into a yelling match, I'm withdrawing.
    .
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  13. #298
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    nvishal

    Quote Originally Posted by nvishal View Post
    No I'm not. I've tried giving you an indian perspective. You are free to agree or disagree.
    What Indian perspective are you hinting at? An Indian politician's perspective? A Bollywood Star's or possibly a Garment trader's from the Palika Market?

    The majority of Indian Military personnel's perspective is contradictory to what you may believe or say.

    All I did was give you a pragmatist interpretation of nuclear proliferation wrt china-pakistan and the logical outcome if indias threshold(nuclear?) was crossed.
    You mean to say hurling nuclear weapons against China in case of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan is a logical outcome?

    When did the indian officers of WAB make a guest appearance between you and me?
    Hello! You just read me.

    I don't follow WAB as much as you like to believe. I'm aware that DCL has some connection with the indian military. I was told that lemontree is also connected. I don't keep a track of their comments so I don't know what exactly I lied about.
    You explicitely stated that the General Officer lied about PLA incursions, as claimed by a politico.

    By the way my friend, Capt. Lemontree is a retired Infantry Officer from the Indian Army. Very well connected.
    Last edited by Deltacamelately; 19 Jan 12, at 11:51.
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  14. #299
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    DCL Reply

    Major,

    "What Indian perspective are you hinting at...?"

    Yup. Only a billion plus but you all think exactly the same. South to north. West to east. Nvishal has his finger on the pulse.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    S2

    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    Major,

    "What Indian perspective are you hinting at...?"

    Yup. Only a billion plus but you all think exactly the same. South to north. West to east. Nvishal has his finger on the pulse.
    Steve,

    Typical urban boyish rant with an overdose of inflated egos.
    I have seen this typical at PDF, from both sides of the Radcliffe line.

    I feel happy that the lads have some sort of interest and knowledge regarding strategic issues. But the taste get sour when they get adament, disregard facts and fail to educate themselves.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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