Russia cancels wargames with India

**commander** · 31 May 11,, 18:52

Russia snubs India; cancels navy, army war games

NEW DELHI: Russia has snubbed India in the recent months by cancelling two important bilateral war games, usually held under a well-established arrangement, a senior official said on Monday. The move has raised eyebrows in the Indian defence establishment.

The Russians have called off the Indra series of navy and army war games in the recent weeks, baffling the Indian defence ministry, the official said.

Russia had late last month called off the Indra series of exercises with the Indian Navy, despite the latter's warships -- including guided missile destroyers INS Delhi, INS Ranvir and INS Ranvijay -- reaching Vladivostok, an eastern Russian port town on the Pacific Ocean.

The reason cited by Russians for the sudden decision to do away with the naval war game was the non-availability of its warships due to their expected deployment in aid of Japan after the Fukushima nuclear disaster, the official said here.

But what came as a shocker for the Indians was that the Russian warships later sailed out for an exercise of their own, instead of the cited deployment in aid of Japan.

The Indian ships returned to Visakhapatnam last week without the valuable experience that would have been gained if the exercise had taken place. Indian Navy personnel instead had to contend with a face-saver of a tabletop simulation during their stay in Vladivostok, the official said.

"The reasons given by the Russian navy are absurd," the official added.

But the latest insult to injury was the calling off of an army exercise under the Indra series that was to be held in Russia in June. Moscow conveyed to New Delhi last week that it would not be able to host the exercise as the intimation for the war game was sent very recently without much time for preparation, the official said.

Since 2003, the two countries have conducted five exercises between their armies and navies under the Indra series. The latest bilateral army exercise was held in Uttarakhand last October.

The Russian moves come in the wake of India choosing two European fighter jets as the top contenders for a $10.4 billion fighter jet contract. In the process, not only Russian but also American and Swedish planes were knocked out of the competition.

After being fed-up for long with delays and non-availability of spares for its Soviet-era MiG-series fighter jets, military transports, radars and missile systems, India issued several open global tenders worth several millions of dollars for the same.

The two sides also fenced over time and cost overruns in the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier refit, for which India is now paying $2.34 billion instead of the 2004 price of $1.5 billion, which included 16 MiG-29K carrier-borne fighter jets for $526 million.

Just over six months ago, India had signed agreements with Russia for the joint development of a fifth generation fighter jet of which Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to get about 250 to 300 planes.

In fact, the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, has just returned from Russia after inspecting the progress on the fifth generation jet.

This apart, India and Russia have also inked a pact on developing a medium transport aircraft, of which IAF would get about 45 planes. Through these agreements, India is likely to invest over $10 billion in the two projects.

Source:

Russia snubs India; cancels navy, army war games - The Times of India

Why did Russia cancel the wargames all of a sudden

**Stitch** · 31 May 11,, 20:07

Originally Posted by commander

Why did Russia cancel the wargames all of a sudden

Maybe because the MiG-35 ISN'T a finalist in the MMRCA competition?

**commander** · 31 May 11,, 21:12

I doubt too ... Also Russia has joined NATO's drills..

Source: Russian submarine joins NATO drills | INTERNATIONAL | The Moscow News

**Doktor** · 31 May 11,, 22:12

Originally Posted by Stitch

Maybe because the MiG-35 ISN'T a finalist in the MMRCA competition?

I was thinking the same. Or maybe it is just to expensive for the Russians to train Indian Armed Forces

**Dreadnought** · 31 May 11,, 22:43

Could be one of several reason mentioned above as well as IMO, budgets?

**Blademaster** · 31 May 11,, 23:09

Originally Posted by Doktor

I was thinking the same. Or maybe it is just to expensive for the Russians to train Indian Armed Forces

The Indian Armed Forces does not need to be trained by the Russians. Indian Armed Forces do just fine on their own training. Now an exercise is different.

This is the latest in a series of attempts by the Russians to extort the Indians. It is getting tiresome and very annoying. India should reevaluate its relationship with Russia. Adm G ship is very late and way over budget, we haven't seen the sight of Nerpa despite paying for the lease and the completion of the ship, and excessive delays and exorbitant asking price for the spares.

I am beginning to worry about the PAK-FA project. Perhaps India is better off by launching its own project and design its own stealth fighter. $30 billion dollars is an enormous amount of money and if Russia is not happy about that amount of money and keep wanting more, Russia can go fvck itself.

**Doktor** · 31 May 11,, 23:17

BM, I understand your frustration, but you need cold head in such situations.

Exercise is not a training? Please explain.

If it's nothing valuable why your Generals and Admirals are so frustrated?

**commander** · 01 Jun 11,, 14:28

Originally Posted by Doktor

BM, I understand your frustration, but you need cold head in such situations.

Exercise is not a training? Please explain.

If it's nothing valuable why your Generals and Admirals are so frustrated?

Doktor India will not be happy because Russia cancels the exercise in the last minute. If India was notified well before we wouldn't be complaining right. It is the last minute cancellation that causes the issue.

**Skywatcher** · 01 Jun 11,, 14:35

Originally Posted by Blademaster

I am beginning to worry about the PAK-FA project. Perhaps India is better off by launching its own project and design its own stealth fighter. $30 billion dollars is an enormous amount of money and if Russia is not happy about that amount of money and keep wanting more, Russia can go fvck itself.

From what I'm hearing, the Russians are charging the Indians billions for the chance to add a second seat on to the PAK-FA and play around with the avionics a bit, and then pay billions again for the actual planes themselves. Doesn't sound like a very fair deal to me.

'Superior' Soviet science is very exclusive indeed

What happened to the times when the Russians actually knew how to offer competitive military deals?

**Doktor** · 01 Jun 11,, 16:56

Originally Posted by Doktor
BM, I understand your frustration, but you need cold head in such situations.

Exercise is not a training? Please explain.

If it's nothing valuable why your Generals and Admirals are so frustrated?

Originally Posted by commander

Doktor India will not be happy because Russia cancels the exercise in the last minute. If India was notified well before we wouldn't be complaining right. It is the last minute cancellation that causes the issue.

As I said I understand why your military is frustrated.

**xinhui** · 01 Jun 11,, 17:32

Originally Posted by Blademaster

The Indian Armed Forces does not need to be trained by the Russians. Indian Armed Forces do just fine on their own training. Now an exercise is different.

This is the latest in a series of attempts by the Russians to extort the Indians. It is getting tiresome and very annoying. India should reevaluate its relationship with Russia. Adm G ship is very late and way over budget, we haven't seen the sight of Nerpa despite paying for the lease and the completion of the ship, and excessive delays and exorbitant asking price for the spares.

I am beginning to worry about the PAK-FA project. Perhaps India is better off by launching its own project and design its own stealth fighter. $30 billion dollars is an enormous amount of money and if Russia is not happy about that amount of money and keep wanting more, Russia can go fvck itself.

I know what you mean, but here is another way to look at it --they are better at selling used cars than I gave them credit for.

**Blademaster** · 01 Jun 11,, 17:45

Originally Posted by xinhui

I know what you mean, but here is another way to look at it --they are better at selling used cars than I gave them credit for.

Tell me about it. They conned India with Adm G. It was too good to be true. However, the blame is on the Indians. They should have inspected the ship first and thoroughly before committing to that. India would have save itself a lot of grief if it had built a carrier from scratch or even go to France and buy a gas version of Charles De Gaulle. France would have quickly jumped to that opportunity.

**Stitch** · 01 Jun 11,, 19:25

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Tell me about it. They conned India with Adm G. It was too good to be true. However, the blame is on the Indians. They should have inspected the ship first and thoroughly before committing to that. India would have save itself a lot of grief if it had built a carrier from scratch or even go to France and buy a gas version of Charles De Gaulle. France would have quickly jumped to that opportunity.

Or, for the amount of money the IN has already dumped into the INS Vikramaditya, the US could've refurbed one of our de-commed LHA's with modern, up-to-date systems, AND the IN would've had it by now.

**commander** · 01 Jun 11,, 20:10

I checked the sources for how mush did India spent till now on INS Vikramaditya .. I was stunned

. The deal was signed in the year 2004 for $947 million . It's 2011 now and the cost after Mar 2010 is revised to $2.9 billion

.... And the ship is not yet delivered expected to be delivered somewhere in the starting of 2012 ...

**Blademaster** · 01 Jun 11,, 20:46

Originally Posted by Stitch

Or, for the amount of money the IN has already dumped into the INS Vikramaditya, the US could've refurbed one of our de-commed LHA's with modern, up-to-date systems, AND the IN would've had it by now.

LHA does not have recovery capabilities. Only SHAR can operate on LHAs and IN was looking for something beyond LHA.

Commander,
does that price include the acquisition of the Mig-29s UK and other avionics and electronic equipment? If it does, then the price might make more sense. Still $2.9 billion is considerably a lot especially for a design like Adm. G.