Thread: BMPT - the new Russian class - Tank Assistance Combat Vehicle.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

I guess I don't understand how and when you'd want to use helos in urban environs.

Helos are an asset that I do not readily dismiss. However, I have no illusions as to what the main force is.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

NATO recee teams weren't operating in urban situations in Yugolsavia, where they? And weren't they doing more SASO work than major combat ops?

NATO recee teams, more specifically, SAS and JTF II were our eyes and ears to threats. Also, Canadian snipers earned their reputations in Yugoslavia, not Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

The population of Basra wasn't tremendously hostile. Notice we didn't do the same in Baghdad.

Two times in the grind the US did.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

In urban situations, with a dispursed enemy, I'd say it's a tossup. If anything it's probably more likely the enemy will find them first.

You don't understand the situation. The city would've already sufferred bombardment issues before the recee teams went in.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

Yes but it was a major operational distraction. Those assets could've been used to strengthen blocking positions, establish new ones, prosecute the primary mission, etc..

Operation HARPOON was a battalion level blocking force.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

With an unacceptably high cost.

I am not American and therefore, I will not comment on the cost. However, I've stated that any non-American force would have viewed it as a grand victory.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

Can you point me to an example of this type of usage?

The only examples of helos used for air assault in urban situations I can come up with are examples of how vulnerable they are.

The only urban situation that presented itself is Iraq. However, I would point to Colonel Moore's battle La Drang Valley.

Sorry, one member of nazi-youth distracted me from this thread long enough. It could take some time to read your posts and I’m little bit busy these days…

Well, I will avoid posting others quotes but obviously there are two opinions here concerning usage of helicopters in urban areas. How manageable are threats for helicopters is another question and I suggest to stop this discussion since some armies prefer to not to use them (IDF and RFT) and on the other side, from what OoE posted here, NATO has no hesitations about that. I’ll only add that my personal opinion is closer to Israeli and Russian (although Russian experience is painful and some of their methods are completely wrong), and I think that helicopter losses until now are too high or at least at limit of acceptable, even without public opinion at home.

But let’s back to topic. OoE said that BMPT isn’t suited to support neither infantry nor engineers in urban environment. Well, Shilka was SPAAG but Russians used it in totally atypical role and concluded that it have some qualities. Troops in the field appreciated its presence and somebody tried to make hybrid vehicle incorporating tank armor and SPAAG armament adding more “anti-infantry” firepower.

Originally Posted by kNikS

But let’s back to topic. OoE said that BMPT isn’t suited to support neither infantry nor engineers in urban environment. Well, Shilka was SPAAG but Russians used it in totally atypical role and concluded that it have some qualities. Troops in the field appreciated its presence and somebody tried to make hybrid vehicle incorporating tank armor and SPAAG armament adding more “anti-infantry” firepower.

As I stated before, I can very understand why the Russians would want something like this. I even stated that if assigned to my TOE, I would be a fool not to use it. What I've been saying is that there are three pieces of equipment (a bulldozer, a 50cal, and a demo gun) that would do a much better job than the BMPT.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

As I stated before, I can very understand why the Russians would want something like this. I even stated that if assigned to my TOE, I would be a fool not to use it. What I've been saying is that there are three pieces of equipment (a bulldozer, a 50cal, and a demo gun) that would do a much better job than the BMPT.

Basically, I agree with this, my only doubt is linked to 12,7mm. If accent is on amount of ammo, I will agree with that, too. But BMPT is a result of russian experiences. Anyway, there is one tendency common for all armies involved in combat in urban terrain – mechanization (Achzarit, Stryker, and BMPT). From what I see it’s a product of wish to minimize losses. Is this step forward or backwards, we will see.

I don't see any ACHZARIT nor STRYKER equivlent to the BMPT.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I don't see any ACHZARIT nor STRYKER equivlent to the BMPT.

I’m not saying they are equivalents, since these are APCs but they are all attempt to put armored vehicle in urban terrain.

Battle Taxis ... and that is as they should all be.

Right. Sometimes I think that constructors are still living in fear of nuclear blast or something so they try to pack infantry in these cans, forgetting what its primary role is.

One more addition BMPT is going to be equipped with two Igla mobile SAM launchers making it capable to defend tanks from helicopters.