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Thread: M1A2 vs T-80U

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86
    Sabots work really well, it's just the M1A1 has really great armor.
    Sabot peneration is in around 500 mm equiv.
    Tanks exceded that 20 years ago. So it is useful only against old junk, like first generation T-72s and so on.

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    What about 2 quick shots? From what I've heard about the sabot, it seriously weakens the armor, so another shot should work, ar maybe a HEAT round after a Sabot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86
    What is ARENA?
    Active protection system that shots down incoming ATGMs/RPGs

    http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86
    What about 2 quick shots? From what I've heard about the sabot, it seriously weakens the armor, so another shot should work, ar maybe a HEAT round after a Sabot.
    How do you imaging that? You fire, load the gun, fire again... and your enemy is sitting there doing nothing? Not moving, not firing back?

    p.s. didn't you just mentioned performance of the sabots at point-blank rangde against M1? And not 2 but 3.

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    Thankx for the site. Abram's got really cool optics. What is a STAFF round? Abrams can fire it and hit the turret of a hiding vehicle or something like that?
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    Ok ... nice discuusion as I supposed... :D

    Mayhehm, i've spent more time around armor than you've spent on the toilet.

    Give it a rest.
    I'll behave myself! :(Cry

    .... ok-ok... tough guy ... what's about Russian armor? Did you fight with Russians?

    Thats said like Russia was worthy of being attacked by U.S. Armed Forces. We just had hired thugs undermine your Military.

    Did you even read something more trully, than american press? Show me your data for armor with the material basement and angles for both -- for T-80U and for M1A1 ... and than I'll show you my data ... and finally what tank have you drove?

    The US M829A1/A2 has better penatration performance than the Russian 3BM32/42 round.
    ^^^Doesn't a spitball fired by a U.S. Marine or Army Ranger pack a bigger punch than a 3BM32/42?

    ... that's the EXCELLENT argument! :D :twisted: :D ... and what about data? :twisted: I have another oppinion on that: 3BM26(1976) have the same values as M829A1(1985)... :roll:

    So I'm assuming the score will be 4 for the American side?
    .. indeed the truth is not so sweet as you think! :roll:

    Sweeter! cut the 4 t-80's in half, and have eight to destroy. :Dbanana

    Except at night AND in bad weather AND at 800 meters....
    ... I've said "hardly to say" ... it means, that T-80U have no the FULL ADVANTAGE on M1A1, like in day-time ...

    No such time is possible. M1A1's aren't caught sitting on the head.

    And then what? 3: 0, cuz one of the T-80's hid somewhere?
    ... my version 4:2 for the T-80Us(the best situation for M1A1) .... believe me ... the M1A1 is faaaaar away from T-80U for armor values!

    Faaaar away going upwards. Just ask Saddam's Tankers...

    Arena has never been tested objectively as a practical matter hard to beleive that it can pick armor rounds approachng at that velocity and defeat them
    ... the "father" of "Arena" was the Drozd-1 system, that had excellent data in Afganistan, while used on T-55AD tanks!

    Stinger missle's aim must not of been good enough.

    Thats why there is 9K119 for targets like M1.
    ... you can hit with it even the HUMVEE(if it need), which's ridin' 60mph ... keep in mind -- that's the guided missle!

    If an M-1 can survive 3 APFSDS shots from point blank range, how can something possibly get through that armor? The worst it could do is knock out the tracks.
    T-80U could survive 6 the same "apfsds" shots...tested in far 1984

    that is not really a serious question M1A2 without a doubt the reason why T80 has ARENA to defeat M1A2 rounds as the optics and ballistics computers will not allow T80 to engage M1A2 at extreme ranges answer me why would a Tank carry ATGM's if it main gun was worth a crap ???
    ... absolutely stupid question....I say only, that "Arena" is doesn't for hitin' the M1's AP-rounds(that's impossible), anf the optics and computer-ballistic systems are almost the same, as on T-80, as on M1 ... the differences are only in night-vision systems!

    and development of sabots in Russia stopped in like 1985.
    ... nothing of that ... :roll: ... what's about the 3BM42M and the last new shells for 152mm gun for T-95?

    Sabots work really well, it's just the M1A1 has really great armor.
    .... only in your dreams....indeed M1A1 armor are about like T-72A(modernized in 1978), T-80B's(1978) armor and T-80BV(1985) (the last have a better armor against HEAT shells)

    Sabot peneration is in around 500 mm equiv.
    Tanks exceded that 20 years ago. So it is useful only against old junk, like first generation T-72s and so on.
    .... 500mm -- that's only for 90 degrees angle ... Russian front armor of the hull have 22 degrees angle (M1's 55 degrees) ... as much angle, as better piercin' ability of any shell

    What about 2 quick shots? From what I've heard about the sabot, it seriously weakens the armor, so another shot should work, ar maybe a HEAT round after a Sabot.
    .... yo, HEAT shells is not for the M1's type of gun ... they are uneffective against tanks...even for very old T-55s ... that's very hard to shoot the HEAT shells from rifled guns, like from M1's gun... :roll: ... the spead of the shell(300meters/s) is not enough to hit the any tank... :roll:

    Thankx for the site. Abram's got really cool optics. What is a STAFF round? Abrams can fire it and hit the turret of a hiding vehicle or something like that
    .... cool optics?! ... well ... maybe ... the M1's max zoom is x10, and T-80U's max zoom is x12 :twisted:

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    Here is my data:

    American APFSDS rounds for the 120 mm M256 gun are made of a depleted uranium alloy, not tungsten. Natural uranium is a mixture of several isotopes, typically 99.27% U238, with 0.72% U235, and traces of other isotopes. Enriched uranium, which is used as reactor fuel, is produced by removing U235 from a large amount of normal uranium and concentrating it in the enriched material. Once the enrichment process is complete, the bulk of the remaining uranium, now called depleted uranium, has only 0.25% U235 left. Depleted uranium is still mildly radioactive, but unless it is somehow ingested, or it gets into a wound, it is not a significant radiation hazard for its operators.
    The US Army chose to make penetrators out of depleted uranium for several reasons. First, it was cheap. The Americans had thousands of tons of it lying around as a result of their nuclear industry, so material costs were minimal, unlike tungsten, which was significantly more expensive, and dependant on foreign sources. Second, it was dense. Uranium alloys weigh about 18.6 grams per cubic centimeter, which compares well with tungsten alloys. Third, it was pyrophoric. When small fragments of uranium are exposed to air they burst into flames spontaneously, creating a useful incendiary effect inside target vehicles.
    The fourth (and most important) reason had to do with the way uranium acts under pressure. When it is alloyed with small amounts (0.75%) of titanium, depleted uranium becomes susceptible to adiabatic shear, which means it forms very narrow bands of weakness under pressure and shears off along those lines. As a result, the front of a depleted uranium rod tends to flake off in small fragments during penetration, always leaving a pointed chisel-like tip to face the oncoming armor. Tungsten alloys, on the other hand, do not fail by adiabatic shear (despite millions of dollars spent trying to make them do so). Instead, the front end of a tungsten alloy rod squashes out into a broad mushroom shape during penetration, much like the mushroomed head of a lead bullet. Since the tungsten alloy rod forms a wide nose, it has to make a wide crater in the armor, but the narrow nose of a depleted uranium rod makes a narrower, more energy efficient crater. Thus, a depleted uranium rod can make a narrower deeper hole in the target than a tungsten alloy rod can, using the same amount of kinetic energy.
    The US Army currently has two 120 mm APFSDS rounds in service. The M829A1 entered service in 1988, in time for the Gulf War, where it served alongside the earlier M829, and earned the nickname "Silver Bullet" for it's outstanding performance against Iraqi armor. The M829A1 is a long heavy round, with a 4.9 kg penetrator that is 78 cm long from tip to tail. The heavy penetrator and long heavy sabot make the M829A1 rather slow, with a muzzle velocity of only 1575 m/s. Nonetheless, it's high L/D ratio of 33:1 and it's depleted uranium construction give it excellent penetrating power. The M829A1 is still the front-line round for American tanks in overseas hot-spots like Bosnia and Korea.
    The M829A2 entered service in 1993, and uses a penetrator that is much the same shape as the M829A1, but is made of a new depleted uranium alloy with improved performance. The M829A1's long aluminum sabot has also been replaced by one made from carbon fiber. This lightweight sabot design, which reduced the sabot mass by 30%, was combined with an improvement in the propellant to produce a dramatic rise in muzzle velocity. The M829A2 comes out of the muzzle at 1680 m/s, despite the fact that its penetrator is marginally heavier than the M829A1's. The new sabot did cause few problems at first, such as an increase in corrosion and an occasional tendency to swell in humid conditions, but these problems have been corrected. The M829A2 is not stored overseas, and it is only shipped from America on an as-needed basis, so sudden crises will have to be dealt with using the older ammunition.
    The M829A3, which is the advanced successor to the M829A2, is currently completing qualification. It is scheduled to begin equipping units in 2003. This round, like the DM53, is designed to tackle heavy reactive armor, and it has an advanced propellant system for increased velocity, and a composite sabot for light weight. Details about the system are still sketchy, but it promises to have excellent performance.

    Russian APFSDS for the 125 mm 2A46 gun uses a distinctly different design than APFSDS rounds manufactured in the West. When the Russians first started making 100 mm and 115 mm APFSDS in the 1960s, they used steel penetrators rather than dense materials like tungsten or uranium. Since the Russians needed vast quantities of APFSDS ammunition (they produced some 20,000 T-62 tanks alone), manufacturing considerations played a very strong role in their ammunition designs. Steel was strong, easy to machine, readily available, and quite economical, so it made sense to use it for the penetrator. Although steel penetrators were not as effective as denser metals2, they performed well enough if they could be fired at high velocities.
    To ensure high muzzle velocities the Russians chose a very lightweight sabot design, called a "ring sabot". This resembled a narrow disc around the center of the penetrator, and it weighed much less than the "spool" designs now in use in the West. The light rounds could be accelerated to very high speeds, and muzzle velocity was an unmatched 1800 m/s for early 125 mm rounds. However, using the ring sabot design meant that the penetrator's tailfins had to touch the barrel walls, to keep the projectile properly aligned while it was in the gun. These wide fins cause large amounts of drag, and Russian APFSDS rounds all slow down quite quickly, lowering their penetration at long range.
    The other factor affecting Russian APFSDS design is the fact that the 125 mm gun uses two-part ammunition. The projectile and main propellant charge are stored separately, and loaded into the gun one after the other by a mechanical autoloader. This means that Russian APFSDS rods can only be as long as the stowage cells in the autoloader. On the T-72 the ammunition hoist doors are only long enough to let a 70 cm object through, so long projectiles like the M829A1 (78 cm long) simply cannot fit. This is the fault of the tank, not the gun, and is the price the Russians have paid for a compact autoloader system.
    The Russians fielded a number of 125 mm APFSDS projectiles in the late 1960s and early 1970s, including the steel 3BM9, and the steel and tungsten carbide 3BM12, 3BM15, and 3BM17. These low performance rounds are no longer in front-line service with top Russian units, but many remain in storage, and large numbers were exported or licensed to client states. Many nations used them throughout the 1980s, and, in some cases, up to the present day. Iraq, for instance, was still manufacturing 3BM15s in 1991. A further series of rounds, including the 3BM22, 3BM26, and 3BM29, were produced in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but very little is known about them, and they were not widely exported. The next round, the 3BM32, entered service in 1984, although it was not shown to the outside world until it was offered for export in 1993. The 3BM32 is made of depleted uranium, unlike previous 125 mm rounds, and it has an enlarged redesigned ringsabot. The round is quite short, only 49 cm from tip to tail, and the penetrator weighs about 4.5 kg. The 3BM32's 1700 m/s muzzle velocity is good, but the wide fins make it slow down fairly quickly, so long range performance suffers.
    The 3BM42 is part of the same generation as the 3BM32, with a very similar rod shape and sabot. It entered service in 1986, although it too was only revealed in 1993. The 3BM42 uses a tungsten alloy core, but this particular alloy is too weak to form the entire rod, so the tungsten is sheathed inside a strong steel casing to keep it intact. The projectile is longer than the 3BM32, at 57 cm, but its mixed steel and tungsten construction means its performance is worse. The 3BM42 has a 1700 m/s muzzle velocity, but its wide fins slow it rapidly, just like the 3BM32.
    The next generation of Russian APFSDS is the 3BM42M, which is quite different from other Russian APFSDS because it uses a spool shaped sabot with frontal support flanges, and has narrow fins, like typical Western designs. The penetrator uses a longer onepiece tungsten alloy body, but few other details have been released so far. Deliveries of the round were supposed to begin sometime in 1998-99, but the state of the Russian economy may have delayed this.



    APFSDS ammunition
    Round Name Point Blank 1,000m 2,000m 3,000m 4,000m
    America
    M829A1 670 mm 620 mm 570 mm 510 mm 460 mm
    M829A2 750 mm 700 mm 660 mm 610 mm 570 mm

    Russia
    3BM32 540 mm 510 mm 470 mm 430 mm 390 mm
    3BM42 550 mm 500 mm 450 mm 400 mm 360 mm

    Now show me YOUR data....

  8. #98
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    SO F**in' WHAT?! .... ok-ok... tough guy ... what's about Russian armor? Did you fight with Russians? Did you even read something more trully, than american press? Show me your data for armor with the material basement and angles for both -- for T-80U and for M1A1 ... and than I'll show you my data ... and finally what tank have you drove?
    Go to http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1358 and to http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1688 Plenty data there.

    .. indeed the truth is not so sweet as you think!
    Indeed, it probably is... American equipmeant has ALWAYS triumphed against Soviet equipment. Israeli-Arab wars, Afdirtistan, OIF. American MBT's are always at least at a 3:1 kill ratio. 3 Soviet for 1 American, that is.


    ... I've said "hardly to say" ... it means, that T-80U have no the FULL ADVANTAGE on M1A1, like in day-time ...
    Only advantage the T-80 has is if they work on the engine to run away faster.

    ... my version 4:2 for the T-80Us(the best situation for M1A1) .... believe me ... the M1A1 is faaaaar away from T-80U for armor values!
    Not really, and what about the M1A2? That kicks the T-80U's a$$ any day, and the M1A3 is due soon...

    T-80U could survive 6 the same "apfsds" shots...tested in far 1984
    Do you know what APSFDS stands for? And if they could survive 6 in 1984, how could they not survive 1 shot in 1991 or 2003?

    .... only in your dreams....indeed M1A1 armor are about like T-72A(modernized in 1978), T-80B's(1978) armor and T-80BV(1985) (the last have a better armor against HEAT shells)
    Once again, what bout M1A2 and M1A3? Besides, I highly doubt that the M1A1'a armor was comparable to the T-72...

    www.fas.org

    The Iraqi Army had a considerable array of tanks, mostly purchased from the former Soviet Union. Chief among these were about 500 T-72's. These modern Soviet tanks were armed with an excellent 125mm smoothbore weapon and had many of the same advanced features found on the Abrams. Despite it's advanced design, the T-72 proved to be inferior to the M1A1's deployed during the Gulf War, and compared more closely with the older M60A3 tanks used there by the US Marine Corps. In addition, Iraq had a number of earlier Soviet models: perhaps as many as 1,600 T-62 and about 700 T-54, both of which were developed in the 1960's. These tanks were widely regarded as clearly inferior to the Abrams
    .... yo, HEAT shells is not for the M1's type of gun ... they are uneffective against tanks...even for very old T-55s ... that's very hard to shoot the HEAT shells from rifled guns, like from M1's gun... ... the spead of the shell(300meters/s) is not enough to hit the any tank...
    So what you're saying is that that M1 can't fire HEAT rounds...

    M1 Ammo:



    Three of those rounds are HEAT.
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    Go to http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1358 and to http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1688 Plenty data there.
    WOW ... so much impartial data there ....wuahahahahahahshshs.... :D :D

    Now show me YOUR data....
    very nice issue ... but there is not a lot of truth there, especially for Russian shells ... I'd heard that sh*t many times ... good advertisment for US production! :roll:

    he-he ... ok ... move data of russian shells to US shells and for Russian make 1500 mm to all ... :D .... that was tested durin' the Chechen war against the Chechen M1A3 Abrams's ....... muahahahahahahsshshs :D :D :D :D

    ok .. that's enough for jokes ... too much to say ... simple just to look at this:

    http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

    ... much more scientific information, and no any advertising ... so .. could you bring me something for M829? (pls ... do not bring those dammit issues about the best in the world American shells!)

    Only advantage the T-80 has is if they work on the engine to run away faster.
    ... nothin' to say ... layman's conclusion! I'm not going to argue with such idiotic words .... :roll: :-(

    Not really, and what about the M1A2? That kicks the T-80U's a$$ any day, and the M1A3 is due soon...
    ... M1A2 is very close to T-80U's value in front part (against HEAT almost the same), but the armor from the sides of the hull and up-front of the turret still really weak ... that's all because of too big main volume of whole tank ... :roll: the armor is not for thickness, but for cover this really big volume ... so M1A2 is not f%#^ing the kick a$$ T-80U anyway! I should belive, that it will the good scramble between them, but the winer finally will be the T-80U because of summarizing the all factors it's still better!

    Do you know what APSFDS stands for? And if they could survive 6 in 1984, how could they not survive 1 shot in 1991 or 2003?
    ....really???!!! ......where????!!! :-(

    Once again, what bout M1A2 and M1A3? Besides, I highly doubt that the M1A1'a armor was comparable to the T-72...
    I believe you .... that is hard to imagine for you (especially, after your dammit mass media rake your over the coals) that truth is far away from what you've been believing. The armor of first M1 versions (M1 and M1P1) were faaaaar away from the same time modifications of T-64, T-72,T-80 ... but was the same, as earlier versions of T-64 in 1964 and T-72(1972)... :roll:

    The Iraqi Army ...
    ...ooouuuff ... again that sh*t ... :roll:

    So what you're saying is that that M1 can't fire HEAT rounds...
    nope...I was saying, that the M830 HEAT-shells is uneffective against tanks, because of rifled gun and low speed of the shell itself ... pls...do not miss

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer
    Here is my data:
    APFSDS ammunition
    Round Name Point Blank 1,000m 2,000m 3,000m 4,000m
    America
    M829A1 670 mm 620 mm 570 mm 510 mm 460 mm
    M829A2 750 mm 700 mm 660 mm 610 mm 570 mm

    Russia
    3BM32 540 mm 510 mm 470 mm 430 mm 390 mm
    3BM42 550 mm 500 mm 450 mm 400 mm 360 mm

    Now show me YOUR data....
    ... taken from Steel Beasts game ... it is very old data and it's have nothing in common with truth and real values!

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    Tell me mayh3m... do the nice people in the white coats place you in the white padded room often?

    Oh and one other thing, while everyone's opinion is welcome (or at least tolerated) talking shit to the mods is a bad idea.

    Jeez snipe I leave for them weekend and you guys forget to lock up the cages.... :D
    Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger
    Tell me mayh3m... do the nice people in the white coats place you in the white padded room often?...
    .... he-he-he ... no me, but you guys need emergancy help of the good doctor! .... just look what the sh*t you talkin' about T-80U and what the sh*t your talkin' about the Russian armor at all, while you know nothing about it! :-x

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    WOW ... so much impartial data here ....wuahahahahahahshshs....
    Why is it impartial data? If you read it you would have seen that there are some very in-depth comversations about APFSDS rounds, plus the physics formulas and proof to back everything up.

    very nice issue ... but there is not a lot of truth there, especially for Russian shells ... I'd heard that sh*t many times ... good advertisment for US production!

    he-he ... ok ... move data of russian shells to US shells and for Russian make 1500 mm to all ... .... that was tested durin' the Chechen war against the Chechen M1A3 Abrams's ....... muahahahahahahsshshs

    ok .. that's enough for jokes ... too much to say ... simple just to look at this:

    http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

    ... much more scientific information, and no any advertising ... so .. could you bring me something for M829? (pls ... do not bring those dammit issues about the best in the world American shells!)
    The Chechens have M1A3's? Impressive. The US Army barely has them and the Chechens already fielded them against the Russians. Whatever you say, my friend...


    ^^^Contradicts his pathetic ecuses about Abrams vs T's. With an un bleievable excuse about why they have it so bad in Cherchnya.

    Where's the BS Flag?! :D

    ....really???!!! ......where????!!!
    In PGW 1. One Shot One Kill was the norm against T-72's and T-80U's. There has even been a case where one APSFDS round penetrated one T-72, went through it, and destroyed a T-80U a couple hundred yards behind it. This is not urban legend or myth, this is gospel truth. What do you say to that, my friend?

    I believe you .... that is hard to imagine for you (especially, after your dammit mass media rake your over the coals) that truth is far away from what you've been believing. The armor of first M1 versions (M1 and M1P1) were faaaaar away from the same time modifications of T-64, T-72,T-80 ... but was the same, as earlier versions of T-64 in 1964 and T-72(1972)...
    Was there even such a thing as the M1P1? Amazingly enough, FAS has nothing on the M1P1. There's another hole in your response.

    ...ooouuuff ... again that sh*t ...
    Yes, what we're doing is focusing on the armor and the tank, not the people inside. One of the (many) cases where American armor went up against Russian armor and won was PGW 1. Doesn't make a difference if the T-80U was moving or sitting still, point is it was destroyed by M1's sometimes, not M1A1's.

    nope...I was saying, that the M830 HEAT-shells is uneffective against tanks, because of rifled gun and low speed of the shell itself ... pls...do not miss
    Do me a favor good buddy, tell me what you think the speed of a HEAT round is.
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86
    In PGW 1. One Shot One Kill was the norm against T-72's and T-80U's. There has even been a case where one APSFDS round penetrated one T-72, went through it, and destroyed a T-80U a couple hundred yards behind it. This is not urban legend or myth, this is gospel truth. What do you say to that, my friend?
    That is a lie. Iraq had no T-80, only first generation of T-72.

    p.s. there is many indications that the truth about M1 performance in PGW1 is not yet told.

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    You're right. The round went through two T-72's, not a T-80U. My bad.
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