M1A2 vs T-80U

**bigross86** · 13 Aug 03,, 21:47

I know that sounds familiar from somehwere. Oh right! Clancy's the Bear and the Dragon. Good book if you ask me. (Stinger, I'm not always a wise ass. I read over 300 books a year...)

**lurker** · 13 Aug 03,, 23:40

Originally Posted by TNP

Yeap, the T-90S is the latest version, this is the one being marketed.
China and Russia are also working on a new 'heavy caliber' tank,
with a 155mm barrel. But we dont know if Russia is actually going to
come out with its own version, the Chinese seem to be ahead in
their progress.

T-80U is the latest mass production version. There are many testbeds, like "Black Eagle" or "T-95". But they are not yet in production.

The same thing is with chineese 85 and 90/98. Those are only testbed versions.
Interestingly that the guns on both tanks are exact copies of early version russian 2A46 and auto-loader is a copy from T-72 auto-loader.
The licence on 2A46M were sold to Pakistan only, and those guns are different looking from 2A46. So, probably chineese copied T-72M received from Iraq.

**bigross86** · 13 Aug 03,, 23:45

Haven't the Russians learned yet that an autoloader does more harm than good?

**lurker** · 13 Aug 03,, 23:52

Originally Posted by bigross86

Haven't the Russians learned yet that an autoloader
does more harm than good?

Kind of. The new T-95 have an auto-loader outside of the crew compartment, and totally automated little turret.
Since it remains classified, i can only point on articles like:
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/MBT/n_tagil.html
No photos yet.

**bigross86** · 13 Aug 03,, 23:54

The best type of loader is a human, who is cross trained for other jobs in the tank if someone dies. Can an auto loader fire the gun, even if its in a seperate turret?

**lurker** · 14 Aug 03,, 00:02

Originally Posted by bigross86

The best type of loader is a human, who is cross trained for other jobs in the tank if someone dies. Can an auto loader fire the gun, even if its in a seperate turret?

Humans are fragile. You need to heat them when it's cold. You need to cool them, when it's hot. You need to dispose parasitic heat when tnak is not moving (but enemy may be looking for it) and so on.
You need to pay him a salary

Noone cares about training and dead bodies, when tank is fully automated.

**BUFF** · 14 Aug 03,, 04:34

Designers chose to make the M1s be loaded by human because it was more effective, than letting a machine do it.

And I tend to agree.

Same can go for machines as you stated lurker.

**Bill** · 14 Aug 03,, 10:25

The problem with the T-72 autoloader is that it has this nasty little penchant for jamming the gunners arm or leg into the breech.

**bigross86** · 14 Aug 03,, 11:07

But the tank isn't fully automated, so right now the autoloader just causes trouble and endangers the troops that are in the tank.

**Officer of Engineers** · 14 Aug 03,, 13:52

Autoloaders are not a mature technology but something the Russians need to perfect in order to reduce personnel pressures and training.

**lurker** · 14 Aug 03,, 14:02

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Autoloaders are not a mature technology but something the Russians need to perfect in order to reduce personnel pressures and training.

Not sure what do you mean. Autoloaders have been around for more than 35 years (since T-64).

One of the causes to use it was - to reduce overall size and weight of the tank.

**Bill** · 14 Aug 03,, 17:42

In the battle you guys are talking about, the highground was the decisive factor, not some mystical leadership.

A tank typicly has a max elevation of +20 degrees.

Quite simply, the Syrians were unable to effectively return fire.

**bigross86** · 14 Aug 03,, 17:44

Regardless, it still was a pretty decisive battle.

**markaspen** · 15 Aug 03,, 16:36

Have to disagree with you snipe. Mediocre or average leadership would have let his force dissipate as ammo got low. That same leadership would have rebelled against holding the postion in the first place given the odds.

Its the difference between the 3 fresh, new battalions overrun at the beginning of the Bulge, and the resistance shown by the 101 and CCA of the 10th Armored.

**Bill** · 16 Aug 03,, 01:40

I never said he exhibited bad leadership, just that the single most decisive advantadge in the Israeli's favor was their elevated position.

Certainly having a good CO was quite beneficial, but it also helps when the enemy cannot return fire effectively, wouldn't you agree?