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Thread: CBO: GCV would weigh 64 to 84 tons...

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    JRT
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    CBO: GCV would weigh 64 to 84 tons...

    Technical Challenges of the U.S. Army’s Ground Combat Vehicle Program
    (here is the link to the CBO's working paper, PDF)

    November 2012
    Working Paper 2012-15
    Congressional Budget Office Washington, D.C.


    Abstract

    The U.S. Army plans to spend about an additional $34 billion in 2013 dollars to develop and purchase a new armored vehicle for its infantry, the Ground Combat Vehicle (GCV). The GCV is supposed to operate across the full range of potential conflict types while providing unprecedented levels of protection for the full squad of soldiers it will carry. To achieve the Army’s goals, the GCV would weigh from 64 to 84 tons, making it the biggest and heaviest infantry fighting vehicle that the Army has ever fielded—as big as the M1 Abrams tank and twice as heavy as the Bradley, the Army’s current infantry fighting vehicle. Designing such a vehicle presents important technical challenges.

    To aid the Congress in its oversight of the GCV program, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has prepared two reports. This CBO working paper provides background information for understanding the technical challenges that the program faces. It presents the Army’s technical goals for the GCV program, examines the threats that the vehicle could face in combat, and explores the variety of approaches that vehicle designers can take to protect the vehicle and its passengers and to meet the Army’s other requirements. A companion report, The Army’s Ground Combat Vehicle Program and Alternatives, examines the GCV program (including the number of vehicles, the production schedule, and the cost) and alternative approaches that the Army could take that would cost less but still provide substantial improvements over today’s fleet of combat vehicles.

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    S2, USSWisconsin and chanjyj like this.
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    84 tons?...
    84 tons?! On a troop carrier?!


    Let me guess: someone saw the israeli Namer and thought "yeah we need that... but with bigger guns!!"

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    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Haven't they seen the Maus? How could they build such a puny little AFV when Hitler had one that was over twice as big? Really - it will take at least 5000 tons to carry the 16" rifle. And what about the flightdeck, the FEL and the rail guns? Perhaps 22,000 tons could include BMD and a trident D5 VLS?
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    Haven't they seen the Maus? How could they build such a puny little AFV when Hitler had one that was over twice as big? Really - it will take at least 5000 tons to carry the 16" rifle. And what about the flightdeck, the FEL and the rail guns? Perhaps 22,000 tons could include BMD and a trident D5 VLS?
    Don't forget the crew's jacuzzi, cafeteria and lounge. And, ofc, it must be airportable...
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    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    We must have a wine tank on this thing- the French and Italian's had them (on their battleships). The good old USA needs to have these too, we must not be outdone. And what about the General's indoor squash court? Perhaps that can be aft, near the movie theater and the walk in cigar humidor.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Wait. I thought our AFV's were supposed to be getting smaller, lighter, and faster? Not bigger, heavier and slower.
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    Stitch Reply

    "Wait. I thought our AFV's were supposed to be getting smaller, lighter, and faster? Not bigger, heavier and slower."

    Damned UNAMERICAN! Didn't think there were any commies left.

    Guess I was wrong.
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    If you put in a sauna, you can get the scandinavian market

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    How is this future acquisitions disastor conducive to the US Army being a mobile force that can be quickly deployed to different parts of the world? This vehicle makes no sense considering the Pacific pivot that this administration is making.

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    At this rate, we'll yet see something like Warhammer 40k's Baneblade. Or even Bolos!

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Heck, let's go all the way; just build the old German Landskreuzer P. 1000 from WWII:

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    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    Heck, let's go all the way; just build the old German Landskreuzer P. 1000 from WWII:

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    Bring back the armored cruiser - and put tracks on it!
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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    JRT
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    Too fat to fight??? What you have to understand is that we here in the US have adopted customs from many cultures, and now we are raising a nation of sumos.

    Gentlemen, this is an 84 ton APC/IFV for the new recruits in the 2020s, big enough to carry a squad of sumos, plus a crew of four (commander, gunner, driver, and teppanyaki chef). It is rumored to have been based closely on a prototype initially designed to carry heavy infantry in the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force (JGSDF), but was not funded into production.






    (CBS News) Is obesity America's greatest threat to national security?


    A group of retired military leaders seem to think so, given 27 percent of 17 to 24-year-olds in the United States are too fat to serve in the military. That's 9 million potential recruits.


    In their new report dubbed "Too Fat to Fight," the nonpartisan group of 100 retired generals and admirals known as Mission: Readiness calls on the U.S. government to reduce the amount of junk foods available at schools in favor of healthier options.


    "Being overweight or obese turns out to be the leading medical reason why applicants fail to qualify for military service," the group says in the report. "Today, otherwise excellent recruit prospects, some of them with generations of sterling military service in their family history, are being turned away because they are just too overweight."


    More than one-third of U.S. adults -- 35.7 percent -- are obese, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.


    Citing Department of Defense data that 75 percent of young Americans can't join the military because they did not graduate from high school, have criminal records or are physically unfit, the group of retired military leaders has set their sights on combating obesity.


    Between 1995 and 2008, the military had 140,000 individuals who showed up at recruiting centers but failed their entrance physicals because of their weight, the report said.


    Teaching healthy habits starts in childhood, the leaders note, so a properly managed school environment could help foster a lifetime of healthy eating habits.


    They want Congress to pass new child nutrition legislation that bars junk food from schools, increases funding to improve the nutrition and quality of school meals and provides children better access to programs that promote health.


    The authors said school stores or canteens, vending machines and a la carte foods sold on lunch lines are areas of focus to make healthier. They are asking Congress to give the Secretary of the USDA power to implement healthier standards.


    "The folks that are going to enter the military in 2025 are in school right now," Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Norman Seip told Reuters. "So it's up to us to ensure that when those children reach the age of between 17 and 24 that they are ready or eligible to join the military."

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    Military leaders point to schools in U.S. fat fight

    Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:17pm IST


    * Obesity a top reason young adults can't join military -experts

    * Report: U.S. school kids eat 400 billion excess calories a year

    * Retired military leaders push stronger school food rules

    By Susan Heavey

    WASHINGTON, Sept 25 (Reuters) - Former U.S military leaders have identified a latent threat to the potential for a leaner, more agile fighting force: the school vending machine.

    In a report to be released on Tuesday, a group of 300 retired military officers said school-age children are eating 400 billion excess calories a year - the equivalent of 2 billion candy bars - from junk food sold in such machines as well as in snack bars and cafeterias that should be off-limits.

    Those extra calories from candy, chips and sugary drinks amount to about 130 calories a day, which over a student's school years can lead to extra pounds.

    "The calories add up," the U.S. generals and admirals said in their report, which calls for tougher standards on the snacks schools can sell.

    "While limiting the sale of junk food is not a solution by itself for the childhood obesity epidemic, it is part of the solution," wrote the retired officers, who are part of a nonprofit group called Mission: Readiness, focused on youth issues.

    Military experts have long been worried that rising obesity is making it difficult to find fit recruits. But the report places new pressure on government officials to revamp nutritional guidelines for foods sold in U.S. schools.

    "The folks that are going to enter the military in 2025 are in school right now. So it's up to us to ensure that when those children reach the age of between 17 and 24 that they are ready or eligible to join the military," Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Norman Seip, a member of the group, told Reuters.

    The number of overweight or obese children keeps rising and more than one third of American children and teenagers are too heavy, government statistics show. Other data shows that such children are also more likely to be heavier as adults.

    "It's a strong reminder of the seriousness and the extent of the obesity epidemic, showing how far reaching it is that even the military is concerned about it," said Margo Wootan, who oversees nutrition policy at the Center for Science in the Public Interest, a consumer advocacy group.

    The U.S. Department of Agriculture is considering new standards for so-called "competitive" foods sold outside of traditional school meals. USDA officials have said they are still working on the new rules, which were due in December. They have not said when the rules will be released.

    Doctors, public health experts and consumer advocates want the USDA to update limits on calories, fat and sodium in snack foods and to restrict beverage sales to healthier options such as naturally sweetened fruit juices and low-fat or non-fat milk.

    Food and beverage manufacturers have said they support efforts to revamp school nutrition guidelines, but they cite lack of exercise and other issues as part of the problem.


    30 POUNDS OVERWEIGHT

    "Recruiting is always a challenge," said Eileen Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman.

    Only 25 percent of young U.S. adults qualify to enlist in the military. Among the remaining 75 percent, more than a third have weight-related problems, she said, adding that the military is still meeting its recruiting goals.

    It is still alarming that so many are too fat and that future enlistees are likely to follow suit, Seip said.

    "And we're not talking a couple pounds here, we're talking about an average of 30 pounds (13.6 kg)," he said of the overweight recruits who do not make the cut.

    "The trend is not slowing down," said Seip, a who retired in 2009 after joining the U.S. Air Force about 30 years ago.

    Over those three decades, the number of obese American children has more than tripled.

    Drinks sold in schools, especially sugary sodas, have been a particular concern.

    The beverage industry launched voluntary guidelines in 2005 to limit student access to full calorie sodas that it says is working.

    Various studies have shown mixed results on the impact of children's soda consumption. But last week, three published studies offered the strongest evidence yet that sugary drinks play a leading role in expanding U.S. waistlines.

    According to Tuesday's report, some students are consuming about 45 fewer calories a day from such beverages on average, even though they are still widely available in many schools.

    USDA data has shown students consuming about 177 extra calories from school snacks and sugary drinks, but without such beverages the remaining more than 130 calories a day appear linked to junk food, it said.

    Wootan said that reflects the steps a number of school districts have taken to limit sugary drinks. "There has been some improvement in beverages, but for snack foods there hasn't been as much progress," she said.

    As for those 2 billion hypothetical candy bars?

    Their 400 billion calories would weigh more than the U.S. Navy's longest aircraft carrier, the 70,000-ton Midway, the report said.

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    Last edited by JRT; 20 Nov 12, at 20:05.
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    Okay...everyone see this chart?

    Looks really fascinating, doesn't it.

    What we all need to do is take a step back and realize we are in the post Milestone A environment on the program....it is in the period where all of the engineering studies are done.

    The public reports are all about the unclassified aspects of the program.

    At this stage a weapon systems is ALWAYS heavier, bulkier, and larger than it ends up being in the production runs.

    What it looks like is that to meet the Heavy Brigade Combat Team Mission the Capabalities Developer (FT Benning) has determined on the 21st Century Battlefield in heavy operations this type and size of vehicle is needed. If we go with a 40mm autocannon the turret has to be a lot bigger than the Bradley...which also means the hull has to be bigger.

    Heard a lot of the same statements about the Bradley in the late 1970s and that it would be too big and too heavy etc.

    I am not ready say there is anything wrong here.

    As for the happy chart above.....that is what I do for a living. I am an Acquisition Logistician.

    This, frankly, is a non-story.
    “Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.”
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