Merkava vs Abrams

**Parihaka** · 29 Jul 12,, 08:28

Don't know if I'm allowed to do this and certainly don't have anything to contribute but I'm curious about the merits of the Egyptian army's Abrams M1a1's versus what is known about Israel's Merkava. Evenly matched, too close to call or a turkey shoot?

**bigross86** · 29 Jul 12,, 10:45

On paper the two are similar. They each have various strengths and weaknesses that their counterpart doesn't have, but that's because they were built for different missions, and this also reflects in their design and their build. The Merkava's engine block is in front of the tank, something which leads to more mission kills, since an engine is relatively easy to knock out, but this also leads to increased crew safety, since impacting shells and RPG/ATGM's expend their energy on killing the engine instead of the crew.

The Merkava 4's pack an advanced reactive armor which is the best in the world at the moment, if I'm not mistaken.

In the end analysis, though, the main difference is always in the people inside the tank, and here Israel has the distinct advantage. Not because our training is better, more comprehensive or more thorough (I've never gone through Egyptian training, so I wouldn't be able to tell you...). The reason Israel has the advantage is because Israel is not fighting for a goal or an objective, like an invading army intent on wiping out the Jews. Israeli soldiers are fighting for their lives and the life of their country, knowing full well that they only have one chance, one shot.

It's like Pari mentioned, the invading armies can lose time and time again, they can always withdraw, regroup and reattack later. Israel has no backups, she can only lose once. It is this sense of desperation and urgency which will lead Israeli soldiers to take actions that are more daring and more risky than their opponents, and why they will always fight harder than their opponents.

**Bigfella** · 29 Jul 12,, 14:14

The other problem the Egyptians are going to face is resupply & parts. They'd better have a LOT stored up & all the expertise in the world, because once the first shot is fired they ain't gettin' no backup from the folks wot make the stuff. I'm assuming given the increasing complexity of this stuff the problems faced by Iran in the 80s will look minor by comparison. One of the advantages of making your own stuff is that you don't need to stay sweet with the manufacturer.

**zraver** · 29 Jul 12,, 16:30

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Don't know if I'm allowed to do this and certainly don't have anything to contribute but I'm curious about the merits of the Egyptian army's Abrams M1a1's versus what is known about Israel's Merkava. Evenly matched, too close to call or a turkey shoot?

It depends on the DU rods, if the Egyptian Abrams have it, they have better frontal protection than the Merkava. If they don't, its about even up, the Merkava has more armor but has it spread around the tank in a deep U shape. The Abrams masses most of its armor to the front. The Abrams has superior mobility, acceleration and is quieter. Gun power depends on what rounds Egypt is using. Non-Du means even up and a lot of bong, bong, bong as they bounce rounds off of each other.

The Merkava has better fire control than the 1990's vintage system on the Abrams but it doesn't matter when it comes to the guns. The advantage only matters if the Lahat has a top-down attack capability. The Merkava can't carry very many of the 5000m range 100mm saboted ATGM but each one it does has the ability to kill any tank it can see (if the enemy tank does not have an active protection system).

Crew quality is equal, despite what Ben rights about heroic last stands (look at how often they fail) the Israelis in 67 and 73 and assuredly today consider the Egyptians a hard fighting force not a bunch of local yokels. The Egyptians have also had decades of western training and planning now. The crew advantage is gone, in fact until just a couple of years ago the edge probably lay with the Egyptians. In Lebanon out of an entire company of Merkava 4's under massed ATGM attack not one remembered to pop smoke- NOT ONE! That is a noob mistake, then there were the well documented combined arms failings. Pretty good impetus for Israel to get serious about developing war winning skill sets.

Ben,

Israel has no backups,

Holding Cairo, Alexandria, Aleppo, Damascus, Tehran, Riyadh, Mecca, Medina, Kuwait City, Bahrain, Qatar City, Tyre, Beirut and the global oil economy hostage to the threat of nuclear annihilation is a pretty damn good backup.

she can only lose once.

She lost initially in the Sinai in 73 and again in 06 and is still here. The only way for the Arabs to destroy Israel at this stage is with NBC attacks and even then it would be a international suicide pact and they can't even get along well enough to decide who was the rightful heir to Mohammed. However Israel can destroy herself through the pursuit of self destructive polices. At the end of the day Israel depends on Western protection in the UN and western sources of arms and the guts of armaments. Increasingly the US and Germany are feeling like they bet on the wrong horse. Protecting access to those arms and UN vetoes means eventually Israel is going to have to face up to what she's been doing, either that or lose them and face a South Vietnam situation at worst or a North Korea at best.

De-mil the west bank and EJ, get the settlements out, arrest try and convict the settlers who have been attacking Palestinians, share the water fairly, etc but don't do it combined with asshat vindictive moves like tearing the settlements down. Do absolutely everything peacefully and cheerfully by the book. Lets the Palestinians either follow you down the path, or hang themselves.

**Genosaurer** · 29 Jul 12,, 17:30

Originally Posted by zraver

Crew quality is equal, despite what Ben rights about heroic last stands (look at how often they fail) the Israelis in 67 and 73 and assuredly today consider the Egyptians a hard fighting force not a bunch of local yokels. The Egyptians have also had decades of western training and planning now.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that in recent history Arab armies tend to fight much less effectively than western analysts predict they should based solely on their level of training and equipment, because of systematic nepotism, cronyism and corruption throughout their ranks. Egypt in 1967, Iraq in 1991, etc. Has today's Egyptian army really turned over a new leaf in this regard?

Lets the Palestinians either follow you down the path, or hang themselves.

Right, because what the Palestinians really need is just one more second chance.

**zraver** · 29 Jul 12,, 17:50

Originally Posted by Genosaurer

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that in recent history Arab armies tend to fight much less effectively than western analysts predict they should based solely on their level of training and equipment, because of systematic nepotism, cronyism and corruption throughout their ranks. Egypt in 1967, Iraq in 1991, etc. Has today's Egyptian army really turned over a new leaf in this regard?

The Egyptian army in 73 achieved its objectives, it wasn't beaten until it moved out to try and save the Syrians. IIRC they also did a number on Libya. In the case of Egypt its important to remember that they are not a confederation of tribes in a western created state but a people a nation with a common cultural history. Ditto for Jordan, they've gone toe to toe with Israel and given far better than the Syrians or Lebanese with a much smaller military.

Right, because what the Palestinians really need is just one more second chance.

When were they given a chance at a game that wasn't rigged?

**zraver** · 29 Jul 12,, 19:33

After some very shallow digging (wiki) it looks like Israel will have 2020 active tanks or which 660 will be Merkava IV when the production ends. Of these tanks 1440 are armed with 120mm.

Egypt will have 1255 Abrams all of them M1A1 or M1A2SEP as the modernization cycle completes. In addition Egypt is adding 1000 M60/2000 Pattons. So Egypt starts with a 120mm gunned tank numbers disadvantage (but only just) but the M1A2SEP mods will give them vastly superior fire control and adds a hunter killer ability and battle management capability. This should help offset to a small amount the Lahat if it has top down attack capability. Egypt also has hundreds of admittedly obsolete IFV's but Israel has 0.

Israel has about 1400 artillery systems and Egypt has a lot more than this at around 4400 tubes and launchers. For the most part the SPH are identical. Egypt has a smaller and less capable air force and its ADA net is a joke but its SRBM give it a limited ability to take the fight deep. It looks like she has more missiles that Israel has missiles to shoot them down.

Honestly if the two went at it in a non-nuclear match it would be bloody. Israel also has better reserve tanks to aim at Syria. If Syria's implosion works it out as I expect and the CW don't get used the UN can get their hands of them for destruction then Syria as an organized threat is finished. Hell At the rate its going Lebanon will be able to fight Syria on equal terms and the Lebanese army couldn't beat Hezzbollah in a light infantry battle.

Hezzbollah seems to have gone mostly quiet, likely waiting to spring if Israel attacks Iran. Though as Hezzbollahs political might grows they have shown signs of following the traditional path from radical to realpolitik.

Hamas, semi-deadly nutjobs with crude weapons. They are far more dangerous to Palestinians than Israelis. However Israel has turned down long term truce offers. Also Hamas is generally a bunch of cowards unwilling to really go toe to toe with Israel. They are not going to invade and it will be decades before the last pipe is ripped out of a wall and fired at Israel- stalemate but not a threat to Israelis existence.

Jordan adds about 1000 120mm gunned tanks (Chally 1, Chieftain and upgraded Patton) and about 1000 artillery pieces. The Jordanian air force has less than 50 modern multi-role fighters (F-16). However I don't think Jordan is a threat, the last thing the King wants or can afford is the responsibility for the West bank and EJ. Plus Jordan renounced all claims to the area.

**ace16807** · 31 Jul 12,, 00:42

I sense this is turning into an "Israel vs. Egypt" thread...which I guess is fine. But it does seem like there's consensus that looking at the hardware, it's too close to call.

On a similar note or comparing Egyptian and Israeli armor, thoughts on upgraded hardware packages for the Israeli M60s (Magach?) as opposed to the Egyptian's M60 and T-55 upgrades? I know the IDF has their M60s in reserve, but they'd probably be called up given the number of T-55s, T-62s and M60s the Egyptians have in service (many of which have already been upgraded to the M60/2000 and Ramses II versions).

**Stitch** · 31 Jul 12,, 04:35

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Don't know if I'm allowed to do this and certainly don't have anything to contribute but I'm curious about the merits of the Egyptian army's Abrams M1a1's versus what is known about Israel's Merkava. Evenly matched, too close to call or a turkey shoot?

Too close to call; the M1A1's Egypt got lack the DU armor and, more importantly, the DU rounds for the 120. And I'm sure the targeting software has been downgraded somewhat from US spec (no nightmare like having to, unexpectedly, fight you're own advanced hardware on a third-world battlefield!), whereas the Merk is bleeding-edge tech (at least for the Israelis). Egypt is no slouch, and I'm sure they're better than they were in '73, but Israel will give no quarter.

**TTL** · 31 Jul 12,, 10:15

What about network-centric warfare? Israeli capability in this area should be much more than egyptians. Doesn't real time battlefield information triumphs over armor level of the tanks?

**bigross86** · 31 Jul 12,, 10:42

Do Egyptian M1s have the IVIS system? Merkava 4s have a similar system in place, called the Ma'anak. It was unveiled as I was discharged, so I haven't had training on it yet, but from what I understand the two are relatively similar in concept.

**zraver** · 31 Jul 12,, 14:56

Originally Posted by bigross86

Do Egyptian M1s have the IVIS system? Merkava 4s have a similar system in place, called the Ma'anak. It was unveiled as I was discharged, so I haven't had training on it yet, but from what I understand the two are relatively similar in concept.

As the Egyptans upgrade to the M1A2SEP stnadard they should have it, but its unlikely to extend to other systems.

**Mihais** · 31 Jul 12,, 17:58

Gents,it's hard to tell the level of the Egyptian army(or that of the IDF) without going into the wildest speculation or breaching the most basic OPSEC.But as a general rule,the Israelis tend to repair their mistakes faster than the arabs.So I somewhat expect that maneuver warfare training got leaps ahead of what it was before 2006 for the IDF.The Egyptians of today,for all their history in the 70's,live 4 decades after those events.Their SOF that hunt bandits and terrorists in Sinai excepted,they have no real modern operational experience.Given the long rule of the Army,their generals are half politicians in their daily activities.As it is now,I doubt we can expect excellence from either side.However,the Israelis have a bonus,one they had from day 1:their officers lead from the front.

Now,I don' expect we'll see again masses of tanks invading Israel.But Israel of today is like Toulon in 1793.

**zraver** · 31 Jul 12,, 20:22

Originally Posted by Mihais

The Egyptians of today,for all their history in the 70's,live 4 decades after those events.Their SOF that hunt bandits and terrorists in Sinai excepted,they have no real modern operational experience.

Sorry but your wrong. Egypt sent a mechanized corps to Iraq in 90-91. Egypt also takes part of in annual excercises with the US called Bright Star. Compared ot the other Arab states (Egypt is not actually Arab, but arabized) they are far more capable than anyone except maybe the Jordanians.

**Albany Rifles** · 03 Aug 12,, 19:09

Thw Egyptian were looking at getting SAAB's battle management system for it land forces...not sure if they followed through in light of the Arab Spring. However, Egypt has started to take a harder line towards Israel.

Another point in the overall favor of Egypt circa today vice 1973 is their officer corps is American rather than Soviet trained. Most senior officers in all of their services have attende the various Command & General Staff Officer Courses. This has greatly upgraded their ability for combioned arms warfare...something they were pretty good at in 1973 and have improved on. Additionally, thanks to this American influence, they have paid a great deal of attention to logistics. What got them in 1973 was not moving out from the missile umbrella....it was the inability to move the air defense umbrella forward due to a lack of lift. I have attended several courses over the years with Egyptian officers who know and understand the crtiticality of logisitcs....and they have improved their support forces along with their combat forces.

Also recall that the Egyptian Army has greatly upgraded their IFVs....they have 1200 EIFVs which is an M113A3 hull mated with an M2A2 Bradley turret mounting a 25mm and more importantly a TOW II ATGM. Their fire support has also been greatlyupgraded.

So you have to look at the system and system of systems. Also what matter is how the battle develops.....if it a a set piece slugfest then the Israelis have the upper hand. If it becomes a fight of mobility then the Egyptians will have the nod.