Ancient and Modern Day Training Standards

**brianbgood** · 23 Nov 09,, 00:26

Hello World Affairs Forum. I'm an active duty Gunnery Sergeant in the Marine Corps and I come before the immense wealth of knowledge and insight on this forum requesting assistance. I am working on a class to give to my unit regarding Combat Fitness. The easiest thing for me to do would be to throw together a brief on the importance of nutrition, flexibility, stamina, etc. However, the easy way is not my style. My intent is to broaden the historical and global perspective of my Marines regarding Combat Fitness. I've been scouring the every resource I know of (Janes, CIA World Fact Book, Wiki, library, etc..) and I am really struggling with this.

I'm looking for detailed info regarding ancient and modern day fitness training standards. For example, I heard a rumor that Alexander the Great had his troops run 25 miles a day, sword, shield and helmet in tow. I can't find proof source anywhere. I'm looking for similar info regarding the Roman Legions. I managed to glean so far that they were expected to march 20 miles a day and be prepared to fight/set up a defense. Surely there's more.

I do have a ton on my the Spartan Agoge which is my starting point. In the spirit of my search concerning ancient Military Fitness Standards, I am absolutely sucking wind trying to find info on the following; standards for Chinese infantry, Chinese Marines, Iranian Revolutionary Guards, North Korea, etc... Essentially anyone who is/could be a potential adversary. I'm also trying to acquire fitness test of our allies. I have found some regarding the British Royal Marines and the Canadians.

Looking for hard numbers, ie, the USMC PFT is a timed 3 mile which 18 min is a perfect score, pull ups(20 is perfect) and crunches (100 is perfect)

Any and all assistance would be of inestimable value. I am leaving for the field tomorrow and won't be back on the site till Tues evening. The class goes on WED morning.

Thanks and Semper Fi

**Shek** · 24 Nov 09,, 02:13

It's not training, but as a feat of endurance, MG "Uncle" John Sedgwick's Sixth Corps got word on 1 July 1863 in the afternoon to hurry up to Gettysburg, and he got the corps moving at 1930. They marched 34 miles and arrived at Gettysburg at 1700 the next evening, being placed immediately into the line on the fishhook. While that doesn't sound like much given the time period, given that he had over 10K troops, that's the equivalent of marching over 300 platoons in platoon column over a hot, dusty two lane road in hot, itchy uniforms without the magic of Gold Bond.

Also, the grinding physicality of the Overland Campaign, stretching over 42 days and traversing the length of I-95 from Fredericksburg to Richmond over inhospitable terrain, digging entrenchments nearly every night, with numerous movements till dawn followed by days of combat is another feat. The Confederates had it even more difficult - while they had less mileage to travel because of interior lines, they did it with stretched rations.

**Kasmir** · 24 Nov 09,, 07:31

Originally Posted by Shek

The Confederates had it even more difficult - while they had less mileage to travel because of interior lines, they did it with stretched rations.

...and no shoes

**Chogy** · 24 Nov 09,, 13:27

Maybe that is the way to do it. Rather than come up with generic fitness requirements for ancient armies that will probably be nothing more than speculation, find feats such as these that are well documented. Since they are grounded in actual combat, it lends a definite sense of real urgency to the feats. "Do you think you can replicate this?" and proceed to describe an incredible feat of movement, of physical fitness.

Best of luck, I think your approach will impress the Marines more than simply "Uncle Sam pays you to be fit and ready..." that sort of thing.

**antonio** · 24 Nov 09,, 14:15

Originally Posted by Chogy

Best of luck, I think your approach will impress the Marines more than simply "Uncle Sam pays you to be fit and ready..." that sort of thing.

What doesn't kill em, makes em stronger

**Albany Rifles** · 24 Nov 09,, 14:43

Originally Posted by Shek

It's not training, but as a feat of endurance, MG "Uncle" John Sedgwick's Sixth Corps got word on 1 July 1863 in the afternoon to hurry up to Gettysburg, and he got the corps moving at 1930. They marched 34 miles and arrived at Gettysburg at 1700 the next evening, being placed immediately into the line on the fishhook. While that doesn't sound like much given the time period, given that he had over 10K troops, that's the equivalent of marching over 300 platoons in platoon column over a hot, dusty two lane road in hot, itchy uniforms without the magic of Gold Bond.

Also, the grinding physicality of the Overland Campaign, stretching over 42 days and traversing the length of I-95 from Fredericksburg to Richmond over inhospitable terrain, digging entrenchments nearly every night, with numerous movements till dawn followed by days of combat is another feat. The Confederates had it even more difficult - while they had less mileage to travel because of interior lines, they did it with stretched rations.

You have learned well, Grasshopper!

**brianbgood** · 26 Nov 09,, 21:25

Originally Posted by Chogy

Maybe that is the way to do it. Rather than come up with generic fitness requirements for ancient armies that will probably be nothing more than speculation, find feats such as these that are well documented. Since they are grounded in actual combat, it lends a definite sense of real urgency to the feats. "Do you think you can replicate this?" and proceed to describe an incredible feat of movement, of physical fitness.

Best of luck, I think your approach will impress the Marines more than simply "Uncle Sam pays you to be fit and ready..." that sort of thing.

Excellent suggestion. Thank you all for your inestimable input

**zraver** · 27 Nov 09,, 00:09

Also, look at the marian reforms under Gaius Marius. He radically changed Roman training from part time large group combat to full time year round professionals who also include calisthenics. He did this for strength and endurance training and also added gladiatorial training (hand to hand) to make the Roman soldier able to fight man to man at the same level as Romes enemies and also be able to fight and march longer.

This was important because Rome was undergoing unprecedented growth that required more and more and thus smaller and smaller coloniea (military colonies) to keep the locals in line. Some of these groups included Greeks (Syracuse and Macedonia) that had long histories of personal athletics. Other groups were very hostile to Rome- Etruscans, Celts, Carthaginians, Numidians and Iberians etc who had all been part of the allied force Hannibal used to ravage Italy. Finally, Marius arrived on stage in the midst of a series of servile wars or large scale slave revolts.

**zraver** · 27 Nov 09,, 00:17

Originally Posted by Chogy

Maybe that is the way to do it. Rather than come up with generic fitness requirements for ancient armies that will probably be nothing more than speculation, find feats such as these that are well documented. Since they are grounded in actual combat, it lends a definite sense of real urgency to the feats. "Do you think you can replicate this?" and proceed to describe an incredible feat of movement, of physical fitness.

Best of luck, I think your approach will impress the Marines more than simply "Uncle Sam pays you to be fit and ready..." that sort of thing.

When marching over roads the Roman legionaire was expected ot be able to do 18.4 statute miles a day carrying 60lbs gear day in and day out. Since the legions were not mechanized the march from anywhere to someplace else had to be done at least part way by foot until a port could be reached.

Julius Caesar marched from Cisapline Gual to the English Channel and back again by the time he was done.

The Roman remnants that escaped Crassus's colossal blunder had to retreat out on foot vs Persian cavalry- and they did it and formed the core of the army that beat the Persians the next go round.

Pre-Roman the obvious example is Xenophon's march to the see. You have 10,000 Greeks, mostly hoplites marching cross country.

The Spartans did PT religiously.

Alexanders Armies marched from Asia Minor to Egypt, then back up the Phoenician coast and across Mesopotamia to the Indus valley then back along the Indian Ocean Coast back to Babylon.

**Shek** · 27 Nov 09,, 02:03

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

You have learned well, Grasshopper!

What is ironic to me is that I used to always tell people that I would take around on a tour of West Point was the joke that Battle Monument was really a tribute to Southern marksmanship. The statue sitting right across the road? You guessed it.

I don't know whether it was coincidence or by intention.

**Rifleman** · 29 Nov 09,, 03:20

Originally Posted by Shek

...really a tribute to Southern marksmanship.

Aw, shucks. I bet they couldn't hit an elephant at that dis.....

**Rifleman** · 29 Nov 09,, 03:33

Most ancient training that I've read about seems to center around things like marching with equipment (to practice phalanx manuevers), swimming, running, riding, practicing with weapons, and wrestling.

Young Apache boys were made to run in the mornings. Often uphill and with a mouthful of water (that they had to spit out on top) to force them to breath deeply through their nose.

I think Roman training swords and shields were twice the weight of real ones?

I suspect that middle eastern club exercises must go back a ways.

**zraver** · 29 Nov 09,, 08:33

Originally Posted by Rifleman

I think Roman training swords and shields were twice the weight of real ones?

Yes, so did medieval knights it builds up the right muscles for endurance and speed since your using simulations of the equipment in the right way.

**Chogy** · 29 Nov 09,, 13:40

Young Apache boys were made to run in the mornings. Often uphill and with a mouthful of water (that they had to spit out on top) to force them to breath deeply through their nose.

And these were simply boys within the Tribe, not elite soldiers. Could you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth (and the lawsuits) if something like this was done to teenage boys today?

Maybe if you used Mountain Dew or Red Bull instead of water...

**Cactus** · 29 Nov 09,, 14:16

Originally Posted by Chogy

Young Apache boys were made to run in the mornings. Often uphill and with a mouthful of water (that they had to spit out on top) to force them to breath deeply through their nose.

And these were simply boys within the Tribe, not elite soldiers. Could you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth (and the lawsuits) if something like this was done to teenage boys today? Maybe if you used Mountain Dew or Red Bull instead of water...

Chogy,
It was/is a common practice for students of public speaking. Cicero writes that all Roman young men with aspirations for a public career went to Greece for training in rhetoric - the Greek teachers took their revenge on the Romans by making the boys run up the Acropolis with a mouth full of pebbles. So I think if we convinced parents that it will get their kids into good colleges, you will see they do it quite enthusiastically