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Thread: Defending the Lion City... Take 2 - 2008 update

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    ...that you are family and you treat each other as family but I have to ask, are you family ... because Canada and the US is family ... once the US found out how much we're hurting, they relaxed the rules.\
    Some leaders get along with us better than other leaders.

    Are we willing to take the chance that they will always have leaders friendly to us?

    The answer is NO.

    Are we family? Sadly, less and less so... Malaysia would rather let Johore's water flow wastefully into the sea than to sell it to us for the price agreed in a standing contract. Singaporeans have to drink recycle sewage water. So, no... US and Canada we ain't.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    Small professional armies have historically repeatedly been able to dismember and destroy much larger opponents. (and frequently the enemy has had more equipment and significantly larger fire power)
    Yes sir, larger army does not equal better.

    This being true, it is all the more ridiculous for some people to suggest that we are should somehow lose even the slight advantage in terms of numbers in men and equipment. We already have all the regular soldiers that a TINY 4m population like ours can give, which isn't much. Our only recourse is having more people through conscription and buying lots of equipment.

    And I still fail to see the argument as to why we shouldn't have more, since Singapore government is:

    a) RICH $$$ (like you wouldn't believe)
    b) Well capable of operating them

    But guess what, we still pay MUCH LESS taxes as a people than either Australia or Canada. : )
    Last edited by Chino; 19 Jan 09, at 14:42.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    I see the point but consider this :
    1 armed man can win an argument with 100 unarmed men ?
    Thank you, it is enough that you see the point. I agree the analogy is a bit weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    If some foreign leader would make such a comment we would first look at his military, if his military budget is smaller than even ours :P we would take it as a joke
    Therein lies the cultural differences. You guys are chill Jamaicans, we are humourless paranoid androids.

    When someone more than 100 times our size says they would attack us, we start digging trenches. )

    Anyway, for your info, Indonesia under a different government made small scale attacks on Singapore in the 1960's called the Confrontation (or Konfrontasi). They weren't joking THAT time. Hell no. )


    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    on the other hand if he is prepared for war, we have to look at the enemy public support for such a move , if it is not there he would have to fly the planes himself .
    Trust me, the governments of this region (including Singapore) don't need much public support to do something.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    2 Full mobilization starts talking effects on our economy. No tourist comes to a potential war zone...
    Our message is, don't even pretend to threaten us for we will mobilize, and we reserve the right to attack first if threatened... for attack is our ONLY viable defence.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    Did you considered the fact that your military ( with all the public support behind it) might be considered a credible treat to your neighbors ? And lead to points 1 to 5 describe above on they're part.
    Interestingly, as the book in question (Defending Lion City) said, our original defence posture was that of a little "poisoned shrimp". The big fish can eat us easily, but they may die in the process.

    We have come a long way from being a mere little shrimp. We have become a "poisonous big ...something..." )

    So yes, we can indeed threaten our neighbours should the need arise. While it is true that our inexperienced land army may fumble or get bogged down in a ground operation, but our superior airforce and navy will mop the floor with the opposition.
    Last edited by Chino; 19 Jan 09, at 14:55.

  4. #304
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    A tank like Challenger is capable in crossing the Straits of Johor on his own or is required some kind of landing craft ?
    If the bridges are out, the navy ( plus the airforce) has the capability to maintain the logistical chain of a armored buffer zone on the Johor ?
    edit : Leopard not Challenger. :(
    Last edited by gabriel; 19 Jan 09, at 14:30.

  5. #305
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    I think the naval and airlift capabilities of the SAF, in particular for an amphibiious assault has been demonstrated many times...in exercise and in humanitarian missions, where our forces could land in the worst cases, without bridges.

    There are multiple ways to go about doing that...in short, its very multi-dimensional with many options we can play with, there're just many ways it can be done, and very quickly....so crossing obstacles without bridges, are not really a problem to either air/navy or the army.

    Of course the Leopard is not heli-transportable...but there're various ways to move them across water.

    As for operational logistics, it should not be a problem....they are extremely efficient...unbelievably efficient.
    Last edited by melvinchen; 19 Jan 09, at 14:48.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    A tank like Challenger is capable in crossing the Straits of Johor on his own or is required some kind of landing craft ?
    If the bridges are out, the navy ( plus the airforce) has the capability to maintain the logistical chain of a armored buffer zone on the Johor ?
    edit : Leopard not Challenger. :(
    In WW2, after the Causeway was blown up, some Allied stragglers and eventually Japanese soldiers found they could "wade across" during low tide. This was a caption to a photo in a book called "Singapore Burning". But I can't remember if author meant crossing just the destroyed section or the ENTIRE way from Johore to Singapore. My impression was that he meant the latter.

    But the safest way is still through pontoon or some kind of floating platform as the current can be quite strong during high tide.

    The Japanese triumph was aided by their having a very efficient engineer corps that repaired bridges as fast as the Allies could dynamite them.

    Japanese tanks crossed using all manners of improvised pontoons and floating platforms.

  7. #307
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    My question was a bit inspired by this jpg ,but this is a european river not the Johor strait.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_Tiefwaten.jpg

  8. #308
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    u can do that, if the water is not higher than the hull...the Leopard 2 can also be fitted with a snorkel to allow driving on the riverbed, up to 4m deep.

    but i doubt it will be used across the Johore straits...its deeper than that.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    - Please define "irresponsible"
    - and what is your proof of our "irresponsibility"?
    Your words here

    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    The strength of SAF in terms of manpower and equipment is not necessarily in any relation or a response to the opposing strength of MAF or ABRI (Indonesia), or even the 2 combined. It is simply insurance, as we cannot predict WHO exactly is coming for us, how many or when?
    It is the responsibility of your defense planners to know exactly what you should be preparing for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    Erm... where are you going with this US/China scenario? Please clarify.
    My point here is that if you're planning for the unknowns, have you planned for the unknowns from other directions other than Johore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    - What, then, is your definition of "realistic" for Singapore?
    - and what is proof of our being "unrealistic"?
    A corps doing the job of a division at Johore. There is not even enough space for a full corps in that theatre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    And what, sir, might these lessons be?
    You tell me. Because frankly, looking at the map, I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to do. You have way too much force for the OPOBJs stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    Coincidentally, the reason we have a strong military is well illustrated by what is happening in this thread. i.e. People like to tell us what we can or cannot do... only to find us unhelpfully non-compliant. )
    Simply put, you are the Napoleon against the Malaysian Tsar Alexander.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chino View Post
    Are we family? Sadly, less and less so... Malaysia would rather let Johore's water flow wastefully into the sea than to sell it to us for the price agreed in a standing contract. Singaporeans have to drink recycle sewage water. So, no... US and Canada we ain't.
    Thank you. Really, my much appreciated thanks. That tells me more than all the other technical answers thus far.
    Chimo

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    A corps doing the job of a division at Johore. There is not even enough space for a full corps in that theatre.
    Sir could you please elaborate that ?
    The japanese invasion of Malaysia was basically executed by a single corps size army.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    Sir could you please elaborate that ?
    The japanese invasion of Malaysia was basically executed by a single corps size army.

    Gabriel,

    I'm no expert, but I'm guessing 2 things:

    1) The IJA force that invested Singapore travelled a LOT lighter than even a modern infantry force of similiar size, let alone more heavily mechanized units. The Japanese travelled light - they weren't heavily mechanized & even their tanks, few as they were, were very light. Indeed, their relatively short logistical tail almost cost them Singapore. They were perillously low on supplies when the British surrender came.

    2) I'm not sure how much of the IJA force you are counting as being in Johor, but remember that a percentage of the total invading force was busy occupying the rest of the Peninsular.
    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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    I think there's no issue of the size force that can be held within Johore. It is about 28 times the size of Singapore. Singapore is small, but not 'that' small either. It is about 700km square.

    The space needed depends on whether you're talking about force in concentration, defence or attack.

    I think it has no issue, even fitting a complete army in defence or concentration.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by melvinchen View Post
    I think there's no issue of the size force that can be held within Johore. It is about 28 times the size of Singapore. Singapore is small, but not 'that' small either. It is about 700km square.

    The space needed depends on whether you're talking about force in concentration, defence or attack.

    I think it has no issue, even fitting a complete army in defence or concentration.
    There are 155mm rounds fired from the Malaysian customs building at the Causeway that can hit Sentosa. I don't think you need special rocket assisted shells to hit Marina Bay, just use base bleed shells from a 52 calibre barrel. Singapore is big?

    You can dump x6 infantry brigades of the 2PDF to do island defense on the Singapore mainland. However, just how much space is there to conduct maneuvers with so many units without getting into each other's crossfire?

    I am not trained in military operations but I think the deployment of forces in an area is more just how much standing space and parking space available.

  15. #315
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    Yes, it is more than standing and parking space. Its not that simple, but neither is it too difficult. Its not like as if the SAF has never deployed in concentration before. We know very well how much space a Battalion, Brigade, Division takes.

    No, we do not deploy island wide and hope for manoevre space within Singapore and fight in our country. I need not explain further on that.

    Unfortunate for any potential aggressor, Singapore is not made up of just 6 brigades of PDF, neither is the SAF for "island defence". Long range weapons, heavy armour and frequent long-range deployment trainings, is not for that. Its an open secret, we don't do 'island defence'.

    With a variety of multiple sensors covering air/land/sea at long range, no artillery or any type of concentration can take place within hundreds of km from Singapore, without being picked up. In response to such a military manoevre, the SAF would have been deployed in response to meet any possible event.

    Putting an artillery at the customs building or anywhere in Johore for that matter...very good try. The civilians will first respond, lots of Singaporeans in Johore, followed by the media covering on every channel....or before that, it would already have been detected and the SAF readied.

    Singapore's small size has its advantage. It is relatively quick to mobilise, equip and arm. Much faster than what it will take for a potential aggressor to mobilise, concentrate and co-ordinate for war. In short, even if an aggressor prepares first, we'll be ready before the aggressor even fully concentrate her forces.

    Even if in a super freak moment, say all sensors fail simultaneously...detection failed and we were caught by surprise...on Singapore itself, more than 3 full divisions will be able to mobilise, arm and respond, faster than it will take for the enemy to cross over even a battalion, under fire from our round-the-clock ready airforce, army's initial reaction and the navy.

    If the other side would have the guts to strike with their relatively limited armour and artillery, you can be very sure, the SAF will have an overkill response and deliver overwelming firepower almost immediately.

    Readiness has been proven, many times even in peacetime.

    Pardon my 'aggressive and militant' response, but since the scenario described is about 'being threathened', then my response should also reflect the response Singaporeans will have when threathened.

    No, Singapore is not interested in starting any war. But it is always ready "in response". We prefer to be friends, shopping buddies, business friends, visit each other at festivals. We prefer to respect and love each other...enjoy each other's food and people and their hospitality.

    I have good faith that our neighbours also prefer peace and keeping friends.
    Last edited by melvinchen; 21 Jan 09, at 18:49.

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