NATO wants Indian troops to operate in Afghanistan

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Jun 08,, 22:57

Originally Posted by Blademaster

LOL! I am sorry but I don't buy this one. There has never been an incident that Pakistan was going to face against the Soviets. In fact, Afghanistan was a side show to Pakistan. In fact it was an opportunity for them to establish strategic depth. Before the Afghanistan, Pakistan was not friendly with Afghanistan. When USSR invaded and left, Pakistan actually got what they wanted, strategic depth. During the entire USSR occupation, the nukes were postured against India. Never against USSR or even any threats of using the nukes against USSR.

The incident was December 1979. I don't know if you were too young or do not remember but there was genuine military shock at the speed and execution of that invasion. Right at that moment, the invasion was seen as the 1st step towards the traditional Russian desire for a warm water port and there were only two ways to go from Afghanistan. Iran or Pakistan.

Right at that time, immediate plans were drawn up on rapid reaction brigades on how to meet the Soviets head on in both Iran and Pakistan with or without local approval.

China was of course shocked to hell just how far advance the Soviets have jumped ... and how far she has fallen behind.

Of course, today, we have the benefit of hindsight that there was never any Soviet desire to go any further but at the time, I remember arguing whether it was better to hit the Soviets in Afghanistan or fight to hold a bridge head ... and that was about all we could have done.

Do recall that Ronald Reagan has yet to fully implement his strategy and gave us the confidence that we needed.

And let's face it, Moscow was not exactly comforting anyone that they were not going to march any further.

Whether or not Pakistan had ulterior motives does not ignore the fact that Pakistan needed a nuclear umbrella if she was going to face the Soviets head on. We were not willing to provide one. And the Chinese arsenal in face of the Soviets was a suicide pact with Pakistan.

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Jun 08,, 23:06

Originally Posted by malaymishra123

OOE, just to clarify here, its Delhi not Dehli..!

Unlike you youngster, my hand eye co-ordination is not what it used to be.

**Equilibrium** · 29 Jun 08,, 05:01

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The incident was December 1979. I don't know if you were too young or do not remember but there was genuine military shock at the speed and execution of that invasion. Right at that moment, the invasion was seen as the 1st step towards the traditional Russian desire for a warm water port and there were only two ways to go from Afghanistan. Iran or Pakistan.

Right at that time, immediate plans were drawn up on rapid reaction brigades on how to meet the Soviets head on in both Iran and Pakistan with or without local approval.

China was of course shocked to hell just how far advance the Soviets have jumped ... and how far she has fallen behind.

Of course, today, we have the benefit of hindsight that there was never any Soviet desire to go any further but at the time, I remember arguing whether it was better to hit the Soviets in Afghanistan or fight to hold a bridge head ... and that was about all we could have done.

Do recall that Ronald Reagan has yet to fully implement his strategy and gave us the confidence that we needed.

And let's face it, Moscow was not exactly comforting anyone that they were not going to march any further.

Whether or not Pakistan had ulterior motives does not ignore the fact that Pakistan needed a nuclear umbrella if she was going to face the Soviets head on. We were not willing to provide one. And the Chinese arsenal in face of the Soviets was a suicide pact with Pakistan.

At the time, concerns of a further Soviet advance from Afghanistan into Iran to exploit the internal upheaval of the revolution to reach the Persian Gulf was also very high.

The Soviet invasion was taken as such an advance that it led the Carter Adminstration to declare the Carter Doctrine which stipulated that any further Soviet advance out of Afghanistan into the Persian Gulf/ Middle East region would provoke a US military response. From that policy declaration, the US Rapid Deployment Force- the predecessor to today's Central Command- was created as its military component.

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Jun 08,, 05:03

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

From that policy declaration, the US Rapid Deployment Force- the predecessor to today's Central Command- was created as its military component.

The only problem with that was that it was a lie and Moscow knew it. Come on, an airborne division against a tank army? Can we say suicide?

**Equilibrium** · 29 Jun 08,, 05:22

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The only problem with that was that it was a lie and Moscow knew it. Come on, an airborne division against a tank army? Can we say suicide?

Operationally, yes. But the RDF was more than the 82nd. It included at least 2carrier battle groups, sevral Army formations, a Marine amphbious force and about 200-300 USAF aircraft. It also was tasked with tactical nuclear weapons.

The hypothetical Soviet invasion of Iran would have led from the mountainous passes of the Elbruz which were often one way and filled with sudden drops and bends- DoD analysis at the time estimated that a 100-200,000 strong Soviet inavsion force would spend about a month crossing the passes and increasingly out of range of Soviet CAS and mounting logistical challenges if resisted by small, mobile US infantry and air interdiction as the moved south/ southwest, buying enough time for the balance of the RDF of about 25,000-40,000 men to deploy at the Khuzestan oil fields at the shores of the Gulf supported by 2-3 CVBG's with approx 80-100 aircraft each along with 200-300 USAF aircraft supported by tactical nukes.

It seemed possible with geography, the limitations they imposed on Soviet capabilities and US strategic air/sealift capabilities.

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Jun 08,, 05:44

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

Operationally, yes. But the RDF was more than the 82nd. It included at least 2carrier battle groups, sevral Army formations, a Marine amphbious force and about 200-300 USAF aircraft. It also was tasked with tactical nuclear weapons.

How long did it took for VII Corps to get into position for the Kuwait War and V Corps to get into position for the Iraq War?

How long did it took Siberia MR to get ready for Afghanistan?

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

The hypothetical Soviet invasion of Iran would have led from the mountainous passes of the Elbruz which were often one way and filled with sudden drops and bends- DoD analysis at the time estimated that a 100-200,000 strong Soviet inavsion force would spend about a month crossing the passes and increasingly out of range of Soviet CAS and mounting logistical challenges if resisted by small, mobile US infantry and air interdiction as the moved south/ southwest, buying enough time for the balance of the RDF of about 25,000-40,000 men to deploy at the Khuzestan oil fields at the shores of the Gulf supported by 2-3 CVBG's with approx 80-100 aircraft each along with 200-300 USAF aircraft supported by tactical nukes.

I have absolutely no idea where you got your numbers but at the time, there were 67 Divisions that we counted that could have been commited (that's 600,000 troops), 3000 aircrafts, and 1000 nukes.

Numbers were NOT on our side.

**Equilibrium** · 29 Jun 08,, 06:46

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

How long did it took for VII Corps to get into position for the Kuwait War and V Corps to get into position for the Iraq War?

How long did it took Siberia MR to get ready for Afghanistan?

I have absolutely no idea where you got your numbers but at the time, there were 67 Divisions that we counted that could have been commited (that's 600,000 troops), 3000 aircrafts, and 1000 nukes.

Numbers were NOT on our side.

I would never have believed that numbers would be on our side in any scenario. Not to mention that it would have been inserted in the middle of an Iran in the throes of an anti-Western revolution. Indeed, in my participation in a wargaming of the expected RDF scenario in the analysis I quoted above of a Soviet invasion with a Khuzestan objective, almost a quarter of the total US available ground forces would have been committed to stopping the Soviet advance for such a limited objective. But with almost 500-600 US aircraft in support against a Soviet force that had outrun its air cover, I think the Soviets would not have enjoyed a cakewalk either.

The analysis of the size of the Soviet force was factored by the available Sovie forces on the Soviet/Iranian border at the time of the announcement of the Doctrine and assumed a sudden attack as the logistical demands of augmenting those forces along with the redeployment of the Soviet forces in Afghanistan for the invasion westward would have taken too long and enabled greater US commitment. The progress of those forces was estimated as one Soviet division at a time emerging from the Elbruz passes due to the narrowness of the passes into the flat valley/ desert before the Khuzestan region. Some US planners thought that this would be the best place to enagage the Soviet force rather than await it entrentched in Khuzestan as in essence, the full striking power of the Soviet force would be prevented by massing by the restrictions of geography.

Regarding the Historical Examples of Deployments:
The Carter Doctrine used the RDF as an instrument, not its substance. It was meant to be a signal of commitment to the allies in the region at a time of uncertainty and an additional conventional option for the US to preclude an immediate spiral into a nuclear confrontation. Its goal in a conflict was not to defeat the Soviet force to end the crisis/ war, but to convince the Soviets that the US was willing to escalate and that if those US forces were on the brink of defeat or attack by nuclear weapons, the US would escalate. It would also complicate Soviet logistics as the balance of its Long-Range Aviation assets for example would have to be redeployed to the region to attempt to take on the US CVBG's supporting the RDF.

Joshua Epstein in the link below provided an interesting analysis of the RDF's capability to defeat such a Soviet incursion into Iran. It's JSTOR, so you may have to pay for a subscription but the sample pages will give some of the essence of his analysis:

Cookie Absent

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Jun 08,, 06:55

Sorry,

I see so many flaws in that scenario that it is not worth commenting on. We launched 2000+ sorties a day against an Iraqi force that remained operational until the Ground War to the point where they fought the largest tank battle since WWII and you expect me to believe that 600 aircrafts can do better against a much more better prepared Soviet Army?

And the assumption that it is a hasty attack is completely whacked. The Soviets spent six months preparing for the Afghan invasion. When Carter was in, we couldn't even do REFORGER right and they expect me to believe that we could move to intercept the Afghan Soviets in Iran and Pakistan?

And people are seriously expecting me to believe that Carter would've escalated? This is the man who could not even prepared the Iran Rescue right and chickened out.

**Equilibrium** · 29 Jun 08,, 07:06

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sorry,

I see so many flaws in that scenario that it is not worth commenting on. We launched 2000+ sorties a day against an Iraqi force that remained operational until the Ground War to the point where they fought the largest tank battle since WWII and you expect me to believe that 600 aircrafts can do better against a much more better prepared Soviet Army?

And the assumption that it is a hasty attack is completely whacked. The Soviets spent six months preparing for the Afghan invasion. When Carter was in, we couldn't even do REFORGER right and they expect me to believe that we could move to intercept the Afghan Soviets in Iran and Pakistan?

And people are seriously expecting me to believe that Carter would've escalated? This is the man who could not even prepared the Iran Rescue right and chickened out.

I was not sanguine about the prospects for success either. But, if the scenario had played out, I would have believed that it would have precipitated or been part of the larger NATO-WP general war.

The Carter Administration even though I was not alive during it was a not a good one for US forces. I know many servicemen who were in at the time and they all were in agreement about his legacy. Some Army guys have told me that if the Soviets had attacked in 1977-80, they would have been speed bumps for the tank and shock armies of the GSFG.

Carter escalating in '80 especially after Eagle Claw? I believe he would have. He was repeatedly accused of ineptitude and weakness after that. He came around after the Soviet invasion and began to increase the DoD's budget, increased support to the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan, fostered increased strategic cooperation with China and announced the Carter Doctrine. I think he would to demonstrate his mettle and prove he was not the pushover many believed.

**Ray** · 29 Jun 08,, 08:41

Hitesh, step back a few steps. You've fought 3 wars with Pakistan and where was China? Where was China when Pakistan lost half their country?

Colonel,

One must take the geography to realise that Chinese intervention is not as easy as it is felt.

And vice versa.

1962 is one off, when the Indian Army was a peace time, drill square ceremonial army.

**~~Infinity~~** · 29 Jun 08,, 09:05

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Infinity,

I am not arguing against the Indian view. Each country has strategic needs that only they can come up with the solution for, be it developing your own capabilities or joining an alliance.

What I am against is this double talk about disarmament while making smaller, better, and more lethal nukes.

While Ghandi was giving his famous speech, Indian nukes already found a loop hole. I remind you that India was a declared non-nuclear weapons state at the time of that speech. The loop hole was that the nukes were in component form, not assembled operational warheads.

That is the same blatant hyprocripsy that surrounds the Moscow Treaty where both the US and Moscow got around the 2000 warhead limit by keeping 10,000 component form warheads each.

As I stated before, I find this subtefuge disgusting with both the US and Russia. I am not going to accept this lie just so India can have her cake and eat it too.

Lastly, you need to get your history straight. There was never an offer of giving India the bomb. That is just plain rumour as about offering India the 6th UNSC seat.

I also don't buy that India needed nukes to counter China. Again, anyone looking at the Sino-Soviet border knew where Chinese nukes were aiming. Further more, both Washington DC and Peking had determined Soviet preparations for a nuclear strike across to Lop Nor, Indian strategists could not have been that stupid to think Chinese nukes would survive such a strike and in turn aim at Dehli instead of Moscow.

Sir

India Goverment gave nod to go ahead with weaponization only in the late 1980's. Now it was before 1988 or after 1988, that is a point we can debate but without getting to a conclusion. (A small correction Sir: Its Gandhi and not Ghandi as the latter sounds more similar to a cuss word in Hindi).

It was only in 1990's (before pokhran II) that there were some hints released in the press that india possesed capability to make Bomb(something like "India possesed capability to make Neutron bomb"). I have no doubt that in 1990's India did posses weaponized versions.

Regarding Hyposcrasies: All I would say "The Famous Five" commited "The Orignal Sin". Then they also went all around the world telling other Nations not to be sinner simultaneously professing that they being high and mighty have the right to commit 'the sin". At that point India sincerely believed in Global Disarmament because of economic harsh realities it faced at that point. But right now like other N5 its merely paying lip service...

Regarding America wanting to give India the bomb, there was an article that came up in a newspaper, few years back (maybe The Tribune, I tried to search for it in whatever archives were available on the net. But no luck...:( )
It was during a visit to India, some speech was supposed to be given in Honour of the American President. At that time its said that the President leaned towards American Ambassador to India, who was sitting besides him, and asked him about his opinion on India being given the bomb. But unluckily there was a microphone for public addressal near him which was by chance On. Its said that American President was really offended by this leak incident and Indian Goverment officials had to face a lot of ire because of it.

Sir, it should be remembered that the China initially got nukes from Soviet itself. India got embroiled in armed boundary dispute with China much before Soviet Union. For the period where you mentioned when Soviet wanted to conduct surgical strikes in Xinjiang, ie. in late 1960's, India had no Bomb program so to speak. India's weaponization journey only begain in late 1980's, And thankfully, it was because Indian Strategists were "stupid" enough to see that Peking, with Washingon DC deliberately looking the other way, had started arming Islamabad with the Bomb and missiles (So to speak of hyprocrasies). Earlier they were so "smart", that they caused India to suffer a humilating defeat from the hands of China. I think we simply need more stupid people to govern our country who could actually realise about whats happening right now on our northen borders.

**~~Infinity~~** · 29 Jun 08,, 09:38

Originally Posted by Ray

Originally Posted by OOE

Hitesh, step back a few steps. You've fought 3 wars with Pakistan and where was China? Where was China when Pakistan lost half their country?
.

Colonel,

One must take the geography to realise that Chinese intervention is not as easy as it is felt.

And vice versa.

1962 is one off, when the Indian Army was a peace time, drill square ceremonial army. .

Ray Sir

Glad you took this point. I would really appreciate if you could give some details about China's aggressive posturing in Tawang in 1971. And also about runmour that during Kargil War China had tried about twenty four times to capture some area in Leh region (I think this was mentioned in General VP Malik's Book). Thanks in Advance.

OOE Sir

China did not go beyond some aggressive posturing in 1971 due to two facts:
> India had maintained its troop presence in North Eastern Border
> Perhaps biggest reason: India had support of Soviet Union

**~~dilawar~~** · 29 Jun 08,, 10:03

To give the Pakistanis some balls to stay in the fight against the meanest 200,000 man tank army history has ever saw.

Just sort of jumped out of my chair when i read that! Apart from not believing that one bit, just wonder if that perception was common amongst the cold war planners at Pentagon and elsewhere in the West. If so they got things seriously wrong..

**bolo121** · 29 Jun 08,, 12:33

Originally Posted by dilawar

Just sort of jumped out of my chair when i read that! Apart from not believing that one bit, just wonder if that perception was common amongst the cold war planners at Pentagon and elsewhere in the West. If so they got things seriously wrong..

Silly fellow...have alook below

Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (Western Group of Forces)HQ Wundsdorf

Translated by Constantine Pehlivanov
Courtesy of ÃÅÍØÒÀÁ - GENSTAB (èñòîðèÿ, âîåííàÿ, èãðû, wargame, ñåðæàíò, íàïîëåîí, áîðîäèíî, âåðìàõò, îëîâÿííûé, ñîëäàòèê, ôèãóðêà, àðìèÿ, æóðíàë, sergeant, revue, history, napoleon, wehrmacht, borodino) and www.sinor.ru/~gsvg2001

1 Guards Armored Army HQ Dresden

20 Guards “ Prikarpatsko-Berlinskaya” Motorized-Rifle Division (MRD) - HQ Grimma

29 Guards “Lublinski”Motorized-Rifle Regiment (MRR) - Plauen

67 Guards “Yaroslavski” MRR - Grimma

242 Guards “Zaleshtitzki” MRR - Wurzen

576 Guards “Bobruiski” MRR - Glauchau

944 Guards “Chernovitzko-Gneznenski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Leisnig

358 Guards “Prikarpatsko-Gneznenski” SAM Regiment – Leisnig

9 “Bobruisko-Berlinskaya” Armored Division – HQ Risa

1 Guards “Chertkovski” Armored Regiment (AR) - Zeitchein

1321 “Gluhovsko-Rechitzki” MRR - Juteborg

70 Guards “Proskurovsko-Berlinski” AR - Zeitchein

302 MRR - Risa

96 Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Borna

11 Guards “Prikarpatsko-Berlinskaya” Armored Division - HQ Dresden

7 Guards “Novgorodsko-Berlinski” AR - Meissen

40 Guards “Chertkovski” AR - Konnigsbruck

44 Guards “Berdichevski” AR – Konnigsbruck

249 Guards “Chernovitzki” MRR - Dresden

841 Guards “Chernovitzki” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Hemniz

1018 “Yaroslavski” SAM regiment – Meissen

Direct Reporting Units

225 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Altstadt

485 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Brandiss

181 Missile Brigade - Kochtstadt

432 Missile Brigade - Wurzen

308 Artillery Brigade - Zeitchein

53 SAM Brigade - Altenburg

41 Material Support Brigade - Dresden

253 Independent Radio-technical Regiment - Merseburg

68 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment - Dresden

3 Independent Communication Regiment - Dresden

Reconnaissance/Commando Units

13 Independent Recon Battalion (IRB) of 9 AD - Zaitcheim

9 IRB of 11 AD - Dresden

68 IRB of 20 MRD – Grimma

SPETZNAZ company at Army disposal
2 Guards Armored Army HQ Fuhrstenberg

21 “Taganrogskaya” MRD – HQ Perleberg

239 MRR - Perleberg

240 MRR - Ludwiglust

283 Guards “Berlinski” MRR - Hagenow

568 MRR - Parchim

1054 Self-propelled Artillery regiment - Ratenow

1079 SAM Regiment – Perleburg

94 Guards “Zvenigorodsko-Berlinskaya” MRD HQ Schwerin

204 Guards “Umansko-Berlinski” MRR - Schwerin

286 Guards “Brandenburgski” MRR - Schwerin

288 Guards “Kishinevski” MRR - Wismar

74 Guards “Valginski” AR - Schwerin

199 Guards “Brandenburgski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Wismar

896 “Demblinski” SAM Regiment – Schwerin

207 “Pomeranskaya” MRD - Stendal

33 “Berlinski” MRR - Stendal

41 “Berlinski” MRR - Gardelegen

400 MRR - Malwinkel

591 Guards “Rechitzki” MRR - State

693 Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Stendal

75 Guards “Demblinsko-Pomeranski” - Stendal

16 Guards “Umanskaya” Armored Division HQ Neustreliz

7 Guards “Umansko-Pomeranski” AR - Neustreliz

65 Guards “Sevsko-Pomeranski” AR - Neustreliz

60 MRR - Rawensbruck

723 Guards MRR - Ratenov

724 Guards “Varshavski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Neustreliz

66 Guards “Lublinski” SAM Regiment – Neustreliz

Direct Reporting Units

172 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Damm

439 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Damm

290 Artillery Brigade - Schweinrich

112 Missile Brigade - Genrodze

458 Missile Brigade - Neustreliz

61 SAM Brigade - State

118 Material Support Brigade - Rawensbruck

250 Independent Radio-technical Regiment - Stendal

69 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment - Ratenov

5 Independent Communication Regiment – Rawensbruck
Reconnaissance/Commando Units

170 IRB of 16 AD - Neuterliz

34 IRB of 21 MRD - Perleberg

12 IRB of 94 MRD - Schwerin

6 IRB of 207 MRD - Hardlegen

SPETZNAZ company at Army disposal

In wartime 2 Guards Armored Army would get 19 MRD of former East Germany.
3 Strike Army HQ Magdeburg

7 Guards “Kievsko-Berlinskaya” Armored Division HQ Rosslau

55 Guards “Vasilkovski” AR – Lutterstadt-Wittenberg

56 Guards “Vasilkovsko-Shepetovski” AR - Zerbst

79 Guards “Bobruiski” AR - Rosslau

40 “Berlinski” MRR - Bernburg

670 Guards “Lvovski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Kochstadt

287 Guards “Lvovski” SAM Regiment - Rosslau

10 Guards “Uralsko-Lvovskaya” Armored Division HQ Altengrabow

61 Guards “Sverdlovsko-Lvovski” AR - Altengrabow

62 Guards “Permsko-Keletzki” AR - Altengrabow

63 Guards “Chelyabinsko-Petrokovski” AR - Altengrabow

248 Guards “Unechski” MRR – Schonebeck

744 Guards “Ternopolski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Altengrabow

359 Guards “Lvovski” SAM Regiment – Altengrabow

12 Guards “Umanskaya” Armored Division HQ Neuruppin

48 Guards “Vapniarsko-Varshavski” AR - Neuruppin

332 Guards “Varshavski” AR - Neuruppin

353 Guards “Vapniarsko-Berlinski” AR - Neuruppin

200 Guards “Fastovski” MRR - Burg

117 Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Malwinkel

933 “Verhne-Dneprovski” SAM Regiment – Burg

47 Guards “Nizhnedneprovskaya” Armored Division – HQ Hillersleben

26 “Feodosiiski” AR - Hillersleben

153 “Smolenski” AR - Hillersleben

197 Guards “Vapniarsko-Varshavski” AR - Halberstadt

245 Guards “Gneznenski” MRR - Malwinkel

99 Guards “Pomeranski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Malwinkel

1009 SAM Regiment – Hillersleben
Direct Reporting Units

178 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Borstel

440 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Borstel

36 Missile Brigade - Altengrabow

448 Missile Brigade - Born

49 SAM Brigade - Planken

385 Artillery Brigade - Planken

42 Material Support Brigade - Magdeburg

254 Independent Radio-technical Regiment - Magdeburg

36 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment - Magdeburg

105 Independent Communication Regiment - Magdeburg
Reconnaissance/Commando Units

40 IRB of 7 AD - Kwedlinburg

112 IRB of 10 AD - Halberstadt

180 IRB of 12 AD - Malwinkel

7 IRB of 47 AD - Hillersleben

SPETZNAZ company at Army disposal
8 Guards Army HQ Nohra

27 Guards “Omsko-Novoburgskaya” MRD HQ Halle

68 Guards “Posnanski” MRR – Halle

243 Guards “Berlinski” MRR - Halle

244 Guards “Berlinski” MRR - Schlotheim

28 “Brestski” AR - Halle

54 Guards “Posnanski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Halle

286 Guards “Premishlski” SAM Regiment – Halle

39 Guards “Barvenkovskaya” MRD – HQ Ohrdruf

117 Guards “Posnanski” MRR - Meiningen

120 Guards “Posnanski” MRR - Ohrdruf

172 Guards “Gnesnenski” MRR - Gotha

585 Guards “Rechitzki” MRR - Ohrdruf

915 SAM Regiment - Ohrdruf

87 Guards “Posnanski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment – Gotha

57 Guards “Novoburgskaya” MRD HQ Naumburg

170 Guards “Demblinsko-Berlinski” MRR - Naumburg

174 Guards “Pomeranski” MRR - Weisenvels

241 Guards “Lodzinski” MRR - Leipzig

51 Guards “Fastovski” AR - Zeitz

128 Guards “Demblinsko-Pomeranski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Zeitz

901 SAM Regiment – Naumburg

79 Guards “Zaporozhskaya” Armored Division HQ Jena

17 Guards “Orlovski” AR - Saalfeld

45 Guards “Gusiatinski” AR - Weimar

211 “Kalitzkovski” AR - Jena

247 Guards “Lodzinski” MRR - Weimar

172 Guards “Berlinski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Rudolstadt

1075 SAM Regiment – Weimar
Direct Reporting Units

336 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Nohra

486 Independent Helicopter Regiment – Altes-Lager

11 Missile Brigade - Weisenvels

449 Missile Brigade - Arnstadt

18 SAM Brigade - Gotha

116 Material Support Brigade - Altenburg

390 Artillery Brigade - Ohrdurf

119 Independent AR - Badlangensalz

65 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment - Merseburg

194 Independent Radio-technical Regiment - Weimar

91 Independent Communication Regiment - Weimar
Reconnaissance/Commando Units

5 IRB of 27 MRR - Mulhausen

11 IRB of 39 MRR - Meiningen

113 IRB of 57 MRR - Rudelstadt

10 IRB of 79 AD – Jena

SPETZNAZ company at Army disposal

In wartime 8 Guards Army would get 17 MRD of former East Germany

20 Guards Army HQ Eberswalde-Finow

25 Armored Division HQ Vogelsand

162 AR - Vogelsand

175 AR - Prenzlau

335 AR - Prenzlau

803 MRR - Vogelsand

843 Self-propelled Artillery Brigade = Schonwalde

1702 SAM Regiment – Prenzlau

32 Guards Armored Division HQ Juteborg

287 AR - Juteborg

288 AR - Juteborg

343 AR - Juteborg

83 MRR - Dalgow

469 Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Juteborg

? SAM Regiment - Juteborg

35 “Krasnogradskaya” MRD HQ Krampniz

62 “Slonimsko-Pomeranski” MRR - Potsdam

64 “Slutzko-Pomeranski” MRR - Potsdam

69 “Proskurovski” MRR - Wundsdorf

83 Guards “Nezhinski” MRR - Krampniz

219 “Kremenchugsko-Berlinski” AR - Olympischesdorf

283 Guards “Varshavski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Ehlstall

200 “Brestski” SAM Regiment – Krampniz

90 Guards “Lvovskaya” Armored Division HQ Bernau

6 Guards “Lvovski” AR – Bad-Freinwelde

68 Guards “Zhitomirsko-Berlinski” AR - Bernau

215 Guards “Kamenetz-Podolski” AR - Bernau

81 Guards “Petrokovski” MRR – Eberswalde-Finov

400 “Transilvanski” Self-propelled Artillery Regiment - Bernau

288 Guards SAM Regiment - Bernau
6 Independent Guards “Berlinskaya” MR Brigade - Karlchorst Direct reporting Units

337 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Malwinkel

487 Independent Helicopter Regiment - Presslau

27 Missile Brigade - Juteborg

464 Missile Brigade - Vurstenwalde

67 SAM Brigade - Ehlstall

117 Material Support Brigade – Eberswalde-Finov

387 Artillery Brigade – Altes-Lager

264 Independent Radio-technical Regiment - Neudenbritz

44 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment – Frankfurt-on-Oder

6 Independent Communication regiment - Eberswalde

Reconnaissance/Commando Units

58 IRB of 35 MRR - Krampniz

30 IRB of 90 AD - Bernau

53 IRB of 25 AD - Prenzlau

107 IRB of 32 AD - Juteborg

SPETZNAZ company at Army disposal
16 Air Army HQ Wundsdorf

6 Guards “Donetzkaya” Fighter Division HQ Merseburg

296 Fighter-Bomber Air Regiment (FBAR) - Grossenheim

31 Guards “Nikopolski” Fighter Air Regiment (FAR) - Valkenberg

85 Guards “Sevastopolski” FAR - Merseburg

968 FAR - Kobiz

139 Air Technical regiment - Merseburg

16 Guards “Svirskaya” Fighter Division HQ Damgarten

33 FAR - Witstock

773 FAR - Damgarten

787 FAR - Eberwalde

26 Fighter Division HQ Zerbst

35 FAR - Zerbst

833 FAR – Altes-Lager

125 Fighter-Bomber Division HQ Rechlin

19 FAR - Lehrz

20 FBAR – Gross-Dehln

105 Fighter-Bomber Division HQ Grossenhein

296 FBAR - Grossenhein

559 FBAR - Fuhrsterwalde

911 FBAR – Brand
Direct Reporting Units

11 “Vitebski” Independent Recce Regiment - Wehlzov

226 Independent Composite Air Regiment - Sperenberg

357 Independent Attack Air Regiment - Brandis

368 Independent Attack Air Regiment - Tutov

Direct Reporting Units of Western Group of Forces

2 SPETZNAZ brigades

157 SAM Brigade - Primerwalde

164 Missile Brigade - Drachhausen

175 Missile Brigade - Oschaz

133 SAM Brigade - Juteborg

202 SAM Brigade - Magdeburg

40 Radio-technical Brigade - Wittstock

45 Radio-technical Brigade - Mersseburg

1 Engineer-Sapper Brigade - Brandenburg

118 “Bobruisko-Berlinskaya” Communication Brigade - Wundsdorf

119 Communication Brigade - Leipzig

132 Communication Brigade - Treuzenbritzen

34 Artillery Division - Potsdam

286 Guards “Prazhskaya” Howitzer Brigade - Potsdam

288 “Varshavskaya” Heavy Howitzer Artillery Brigade - Hemniz

303 Guards “Kalinkovichskaya” Cannon Brigade - Altengrabow

307 Jet Artillery Brigade - Hemniz

122 Antitank Artillery Brigade - Koningsbruck

64 Automobile Brigade - Kummersdorf

65 Automobile Brigade - Vurstenwalde

27 Pontoon-Bridge Regiment – Luterstadt-Wttenberg

272 Independent Communication Regiment – Frankfurt-on-Oder

29 Independent ECM Regiment - Schenwalde

67 SAM Brigade - Ehlstahl

163 SAM Brigade - Leipzig

252 SAM Brigade - Gera

239 Independent Guards “Belgorodski” Helicopter Regiment – Oranienburg

In wartime Western Group of Forces would get 6 MRD of former East Germany in reserve.

Western Group of Forces was the backbone of Western strategic direction and its zone of responsibility included Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark.

Total force amounted to:

363 690 men

5 880 MBTs

9 790 APCs/IFVs

4 624 artillery pieces (caliber 100 mm and above)

625 warplanes

698 helicopters

The army of former East Germany would back WGF and included:

6 divisions (11 in wartime)

1719 MBTs (2798 in wartime)

2792 APCs/IFVs (4999 in wartime)

887 artillery pieces (100 mm and above, 1746 in wartime)

394 warplanes

64 helicopters

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Jun 08,, 13:42