T-80 & The Arjun. Army avoiding trials.

**Tronic** · 29 Sep 09,, 00:15

Originally Posted by T-80U Cobra MBT

Yes, they did test it by having a T-72 fire at it, and it didn't penetrate. There is some controversies regarding the test as some say a training round was shot at it.

A re-test was done and the T-72 fired a sabot round that penetrated the Arjun's frontal arc.

When did this "re-test" take place? Last time I checked, the T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun at point blank range. So do tell me where you got the info for the alleged test controversy and the re-test.

The only controversy surrounding the tests that took place was one where it was brought out that the T-70 and even the T-90s weren't being subjected to the same tests the Arjun was being put through. Another one, when the Arjun's thermal imagers overheated, a huge outcry took place, when the T-90s burnt their thermal imagers in the Rajasthan desert, it was more of a hush hush affair. All hail the foreign arms lobby!

**T-80U Cobra MBT** · 29 Sep 09,, 11:49

Originally Posted by Tronic

When did this "re-test" take place? Last time I checked, the T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun at point blank range. So do tell me where you got the info for the alleged test controversy and the re-test.

The only controversy surrounding the tests that took place was one where it was brought out that the T-70 and even the T-90s weren't being subjected to the same tests the Arjun was being put through. Another one, when the Arjun's thermal imagers overheated, a huge outcry took place, when the T-90s burnt their thermal imagers in the Rajasthan desert, it was more of a hush hush affair. All hail the foreign arms lobby!

The Kanchan Armor | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

that's where I found the info on the Indians having doubts about the T-72 firing actual rounds. This led to a debate if whether or not they used training rounds.

I can't remember where the site with the info on the penetration of the Arjun. I'm trying to find it now, and when I do I'll post it here.

Well thermal imagers need to be better built to withstand hot desert temperatures. The T-90A(Russia's version) has better TIS than the T-90S(Indian version). Same goes for T-80s, and though I hate to admit it, western tanks have the best tech, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're invincible.

**Tronic** · 29 Sep 09,, 15:36

Originally Posted by T-80U Cobra MBT

The Kanchan Armor | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

that's where I found the info on the Indians having doubts about the T-72 firing actual rounds. This led to a debate if whether or not they used training rounds.

I can't remember where the site with the info on the penetration of the Arjun. I'm trying to find it now, and when I do I'll post it here.

Cobra, you can't use a discussion on another forum as a fact. And from the article you provided:

This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range. Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition. As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.

Originally Posted by T-80U Cobra MBT

Well thermal imagers need to be better built to withstand hot desert temperatures. The T-90A(Russia's version) has better TIS than the T-90S(Indian version). Same goes for T-80s, and though I hate to admit it, western tanks have the best tech, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're invincible.

India initially used Israeli and French tech on its initial T-90s (It were the French thermal imagers which gave the problems). The batch which is being completely built in India is actually the T-90A, aka T-90M, which in India is termed the T-90S. It is not the same as Russia's T-90S (Russian export version of the T-90). The Indian T-90S uses the same thermal imagers used on the Russian T-90A.

**zraver** · 29 Sep 09,, 15:54

Originally Posted by Tronic

India initially used Israeli and French tech on its initial T-90s (It were the French thermal imagers which gave the problems). The batch which is being completely built in India is actually the T-90A, aka T-90M, which in India is termed the T-90S. It is not the same as Russia's T-90S (Russian export version of the T-90). The Indian T-90S uses the same thermal imagers used on the Russian T-90A.

Russia signed a licensing agreement with THALES for the production of the Catherine TI system for the T-90Vladimir.

The T-90M
uses kachan ceramic in place of the Russian ceramic inserts.
Use the Kacktus heavy ERA
Swedish APS system
Improved auto-loader
battle management system
hunter-killer ability.
IIRC a more powerful 1000 or 1200hp engine.

This makes it a vastly improved tank. However if it is penetrated then the same risk of a catastrophic explosion exists since the ammunition storage is still not protected and isolated.

**Tronic** · 30 Sep 09,, 00:32

Originally Posted by zraver

Russia signed a licensing agreement with THALES for the production of the Catherine TI system for the T-90Vladimir.

The T-90M
uses kachan ceramic in place of the Russian ceramic inserts.
Use the Kacktus heavy ERA
Swedish APS system
Improved auto-loader
battle management system
hunter-killer ability.
IIRC a more powerful 1000 or 1200hp engine.

This makes it a vastly improved tank. However if it is penetrated then the same risk of a catastrophic explosion exists since the ammunition storage is still not protected and isolated.

Zrav, thanks for that. Also, regarding the thermal imagers, thats what I thought, and I had heard of those thermal imagers getting fried in the Rajasthan desert. Reading the T-90S page on BR, it states:

The T-90S [Improved] is the export version of the T-90M and features a welded turret, the V-92S2 engine and an ESSA thermal viewer.
Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - T-90S

I assumed, the ESSA thermal viewer was a Russian one replacing the French ones which had previously failed in the desert, maybe not. :S I don't exactly know what an ESSA thermal viewer is though.

**zraver** · 30 Sep 09,, 00:45

Originally Posted by Tronic

Zrav, thanks for that. Also, regarding the thermal imagers, thats what I thought, and I had heard of those thermal imagers getting fried in the Rajasthan desert. Reading the T-90S page on BR, it states:

I assumed, the ESSA thermal viewer was a Russian one replacing the French ones which had previously failed in the desert, maybe not. :S I don't exactly know what an ESSA thermal viewer is though.

Army Guide - ESSA, Thermal imaging sight

Essa is a sight made by a company in Belarus. If the Catherine TI's were frying, fix the cooling system. The latest generation Catherine TI's ae almost as good as the Raytheon Gen 2 stuff.

**T-80U Cobra MBT** · 30 Sep 09,, 01:49

Originally Posted by Tronic

Cobra, you can't use a discussion on another forum as a fact. And from the article you provided:

India initially used Israeli and French tech on its initial T-90s (It were the French thermal imagers which gave the problems). The batch which is being completely built in India is actually the T-90A, aka T-90M, which in India is termed the T-90S. It is not the same as Russia's T-90S (Russian export version of the T-90). The Indian T-90S uses the same thermal imagers used on the Russian T-90A.

Like I said, there was another site where it also stated that in another trial, the Arjun was penetrated by another T-72 round. I just can't remember where it is. But I remember that I had to do a Google Translator to read that page.

Cool. I didn't know India has already upgraded their T-90s. Any other news? I heard that they also got themselves Russian export BMP-3 IFVs. Do they have any plans to get a BMPT?

**Tronic** · 30 Sep 09,, 03:17

Originally Posted by zraver

Army Guide - ESSA, Thermal imaging sight

Essa is a sight made by a company in Belarus. If the Catherine TI's were frying, fix the cooling system. The latest generation Catherine TI's ae almost as good as the Raytheon Gen 2 stuff.

Zrav, I'm a bit confused, because just last year, IA gave the contract for thermal imagers back to Thales. Thales again bags Indian Army’s order for thermal imagers
If their tanks have already been fitted with the ESSA sights, then why change your mind once you've already bought them and go back to Thales? Surely you can't be having both integrated in the tank. :S

**Tronic** · 30 Sep 09,, 03:27

Originally Posted by T-80U Cobra MBT

Like I said, there was another site where it also stated that in another trial, the Arjun was penetrated by another T-72 round. I just can't remember where it is. But I remember that I had to do a Google Translator to read that page.

Alrighty, but it didn't happen mate. Your source was unreliable.

Cool. I didn't know India has already upgraded their T-90s. Any other news? I heard that they also got themselves Russian export BMP-3 IFVs. Do they have any plans to get a BMPT?

I'm not aware of India buying BMP-3s and I doubt any plans for BMPT. India has its own IFV program running, known as Abhay, to replace the BMP-2s currently in service.

**zraver** · 30 Sep 09,, 04:01

Originally Posted by Tronic

Zrav, I'm a bit confused, because just last year, IA gave the contract for thermal imagers back to Thales. Thales again bags Indian Army’s order for thermal imagers
If their tanks have already been fitted with the ESSA sights, then why change your mind once you've already bought them and go back to Thales? Surely you can't be having both integrated in the tank. :S

I assume the knock down kits coming from Russia have the Essa and that will be swapped out for the Thales system, but that is just a guess.

**MrigKash** · 14 Nov 09,, 07:17

Originally Posted by sohamsri

Additional advantage for Arjun is its suspension. "It has a hydro-gas suspension, which is akin to the landing of an aircraft. You get more pressure than when an Airbus lands.

Out of curiosity:

How well does the hydro-pneumatic suspension work? Theoretically, it sounds great, but it was reported in the press that it had some problems with leaking fluids.

Please shed some light.

Thanks!

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