T-80 & The Arjun. Army avoiding trials.

**zraver** · 03 Mar 09,, 21:56

Originally Posted by Chaobam Armour

I am uncertain as too how many rounds the M1 A2 carries but the different numbers of ammunition is a lot lower than what the Arjun can carry. It's 2 Main Ammunition types are APFSDS - T and HEAT, with a APFSDS bias heavy, very similar to CR -2, except we still use HESH and not HEAT, CR carries a total of 55 Rounds (split ammunition, not single case).

The M1A2 can carry 40 rounds, all in the turret bustle with 4 different types APFSDS, HEAT, MPAT, and an anti-personel round. 2 more rounds are coming MRM-KE (still some time away) and the MRM-CE which seems pretty close to being ready for serial production.

**Kernow** · 03 Mar 09,, 21:59

Just more proof the Chally has a thick skin.

If I am correct both M1 A2 and CR 2 are very similiar in Armour thickness but I believe that the MI A2 has thicker hull armour.

**jlvfr** · 03 Mar 09,, 22:08

A question for the vets: what about the Leclerc? It's the only modern, western, tank that has an autoloader. And this, despite the french previously using 4-man MBTs. Have they came up with a wonder-loader?

**Kernow** · 03 Mar 09,, 22:42

Originally Posted by jlvfr

A question for the vets: what about the Leclerc? It's the only modern, western, tank that has an autoloader. And this, despite the french previously using 4-man MBTs. Have they came up with a wonder-loader?

The Leclerc is a very pretty looking tank, not like the Wary looking CR 2 or M1A2. The French have always been a bit strange where vehicles are concerned, they like to do their own thing, part of NATO but not, if you get my drift.

I have seen the vehicle in the UAE and it just looks pretty, not like a tank should look. It is very light compared to other tanks (54 Tonnes I believe).

The Leclerc holds 40 rounds. It is suggested that the Leclerc autoloader can fire upto 12 rounds a minute and holds 22 rounds of ready ammunition, 1 in the breach ready to fire and 21 in the autoloader and a further 18 in the chassis; to get at these the vehicle has to stop, and the crew have to reload the autoloader. It can accommodate up to five different types of ammunition at once, although like most autoloader systems it cannot change ammunition types once a round has been loaded. The most common types are the armour piercing fin-stabilised discarding sabot (APFSDS) with a tungsten core and the high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) round. WHAT IF THE AUTOLOADER BREAKS DOWN OR YOU HAVE A STOPPAGE?????????

**jlvfr** · 03 Mar 09,, 23:08

Originally Posted by Chaobam Armour

WHAT IF THE AUTOLOADER BREAKS DOWN OR YOU HAVE A STOPPAGE?????????

At a guess, I'd say either the gunner or or the commander would be able to manually load rounds.

And didn't the AMX-13 have an autoloader?

**~~gabriel~~** · 03 Mar 09,, 23:38

Originally Posted by jlvfr

At a guess, I'd say either the gunner or or the commander would be able to manually load rounds.

The smart thing would be to pull out.

**Kernow** · 03 Mar 09,, 23:49

If the gunner were to load the gun, who would fire. But you forget that the system is automated. If the weapon miss fires someone has to rectify the problem. If you have to load by hand you have to be able to get into the loading carosel to access the ammunition. You should be able to open and close the breach. Not all guns go bang everytime you press a button etc. Things go wrong.

You are correct that the AMX 13 had an autoloader, that wasn't so much a Tank but a very Light, Air Portable Armoured vehicle. It carried 12 rounds in 2 six round magazines, that were to big to be located inside the vehicle, they were located on the exterior of top of the turret, also this was first designed in 1946.

The AMX 30 had 4 crewmen though.

**zraver** · 04 Mar 09,, 00:09

Originally Posted by Chaobam Armour

Just more proof the Chally has a thick skin.

If I am correct both M1 A2 and CR 2 are very similiar in Armour thickness but I believe that the MI A2 has thicker hull armour.

The Abrams is set up to take it on the chin. On a front-level attack the M1A2 is probably the best protected tank in the world by a wide margin. The other only real contender would be the Leo 2A6+ and as far as I can tell it outweighs the Abrams by several tons. However from the sides, or vs an attack from well above the level the Abrams protection drops off dramatically. The Chally, Merkava and Leo easily have it beat on side protection.

The reason the Abram's hull is so strong is its shape. It uses / instead of > so it has less area. so the weight of armor in the area is more concentrated. The long nearly flat glacis is thick from front-level, but not from above.

**Kernow** · 04 Mar 09,, 01:55

Originally Posted by zraver

The Abrams is set up to take it on the chin. On a front-level attack the M1A2 is probably the best protected tank in the world by a wide margin. The other only real contender would be the Leo 2A6+ and as far as I can tell it outweighs the Abrams by several tons. However from the sides, or vs an attack from well above the level the Abrams protection drops off dramatically. The Chally, Merkava and Leo easily have it beat on side protection.

The reason the Abram's hull is so strong is its shape. It uses / instead of > so it has less area. so the weight of armor in the area is more concentrated. The long nearly flat glacis is thick from front-level, but not from above.

I think all 3 Tanks i.e. Leo 2A6, M1A2 & CR 2 are pretty much even with regard Armour & Main Arnament.

Leo 2A6: 62 Tonne, 120mm L55, 72 Km/ph (Road Speed). Armour: Turret (KE) = 920mm - 960mm, Glacis (KE) = 620mm, Lower Front Hull (KE) = 620mm.
Turret (CE) = 1,730mm - 1,960mm, Glacis (CE) = 750mm, Lower Front Hull (CE) = 750mm.

M1A2: 61.4 Tonne, 120mm M526 (The Old Leopard 2 Barrel), 67 Km/ph (Road speed). Armour: Turret (KE) = 940mm - 960mm, Glacis (KE) = 550mm - 590mm, Lower Front Hull = 580mm - 650mm. Turret (CE) = 1,320mm - 1,620mm, Glacis (CE) = 510mm - 1,050mm, Lower Front Hull (CE) = 970mm.

CR-2: 62.5 Tonne, 120mm (L30 Rifled), soon to be fitted wit the L55 as per the Leo 2A6, 59Km/ph (Road speed).
Armour: Turret (KE) = 920mm - 960mm, Glacis (KE) = 600mm, Lower Front Hull (KE) = 590mm.
Turret (CE) = 1,450mm - 1,700mm, Glacis (CE) = 1,000mm, Lower Front Hull (CE) = 860mm.

All brutes in their own right, me thinks, thank goodness we are all on the same side.

I haven't talk tanks for ages, great to be back in the groove again.

**Kernow** · 04 Mar 09,, 01:58

Mind you all those stats are estimates as is they are classified, the crew cant measure the Armour on CR-2 as it is under Armour.

**zraver** · 04 Mar 09,, 12:35

Originally Posted by Chaobam Armour

Mind you all those stats are estimates as is they are classified, the crew cant measure the Armour on CR-2 as it is under Armour.

I've seen talk on tanknet that the Leo 2A6 goes upto an maybe past 70 tons.The 62 metric ton weight is probalby good for the 2A5. But the A6 adds an APU, mine protection and an an airconditioner. The Canadian Leo 2A6M with even more frontal armor and SLAT protection on the side might be the heaviest of them all.

**tankie** · 04 Mar 09,, 16:05

Originally Posted by jlvfr

A question for the vets: what about the Leclerc? It's the only modern, western, tank that has an autoloader. And this, despite the french previously using 4-man MBTs. Have they came up with a wonder-loader?

No mate ,it wont ever break down ,,its never used ,unless they sold them

**jlvfr** · 04 Mar 09,, 16:15

I think it's a bit funny how all the west, as soon as the cold war ended, seemed to become light-vehicle mad. Everyone started designing light, 6-8 wheeled APCs and IFVs and FSVs, "high speed is the king, etc, etc"...

And now, that real-world experience came back to bite them in the but, everyone is uparmouring everything, and big tanks are in fashion

Me? I'd buy Merkavas. Thick armour, big gun, severall small guns (including a mortar!), and it can carry infantry! What more can you want?

**Kernow** · 04 Mar 09,, 20:08

Originally Posted by jlvfr

I think it's a bit funny how all the west, as soon as the cold war ended, seemed to become light-vehicle mad. Everyone started designing light, 6-8 wheeled APCs and IFVs and FSVs, "high speed is the king, etc, etc"...

And now, that real-world experience came back to bite them in the but, everyone is uparmouring everything, and big tanks are in fashion

Me? I'd buy Merkavas. Thick armour, big gun, severall small guns (including a mortar!), and it can carry infantry! What more can you want?

I think you are a little confused with your statement regarding "High Speed is the King" etc.

I served in Germany for many years in the British Army of the Rhine in a Heavy Armoured Regiment equpted with Chieftain, during my time the said Chieftain went through many upgrades as technology evolved, the last one being, up-armouring the Tank (Chieftain Stillbrew), she was a very heavy beast, maybe one of the heaviest in NATO at the time. The Germans had Leopard 1, as did the Dutch, fairly light, but agile, the US had M1. The British then phased out Chieftain and brought into Service Challenger 1, heavier still than Chieftain, the Germans and Dutch brought in Leopard 2, and the US MIA1, again all getting heavier. Prior to the Chieftain the British Army operated the Centurion, again a heavy beast!!!!!!!!

The 6 wheeled vehicles you are talking about are for different roles, they carry Infantry.

The Merkerva (Chariot) is indeed a fine Tank, but it has not really been tested against other armour. The design is very different than other Tanks that you see i.e. the Turret is mounted to the rear with the engine at the front giving the turret crew extra protection, she is very heavy (65 Tonnes), this might not be good in a Western environment, i.e. getting stuck in fields etc. It has access from the rear, it also has excess storage space. This can allow for CASEVAC whilst under fire, the vehicle may even be used as a forward Command Post or indeed carry infantry. However putting too many eggs in one basket is not good i.e. if the Tank was knocked out, you have not anly lost a Tank but also an Infantry section. The fact that she has lots of weapons is again good, but stowage of so many different ammo types would reduce the number of Main Arnament Rounds.

**jlvfr** · 04 Mar 09,, 20:57

Originally Posted by Chaobam Armour

The 6 wheeled vehicles you are talking about are for different roles, they carry Infantry.

True, but there was a lot of talk about using them for direct fire support as well. Even the US army was designing a whole family for this. And Canada was even rumoured to be on teh way to abandoning tanks. Now, everyone is uparmouring their APCs, and getting tanks for fire support...