Thread: Turkish Land Forces orders AH-64 Apache's as stop gap solution....

Originally Posted by Stan

Good choice made by Turkey. The AH-64 Apache is a fantastic bit of kit. I know the Brit Army are really enjoying the close support it is providing in Theatre (couple of mates have wistnessed first hand the amazing virtues of 2 Apaches in regards to getting rid of the Taliban).

If Turkey does go for 40 and backed up with the T-129 they will have a formidable array of attack choppers.

Spot on Stan. 150 T-129's will enter into service before 2012. We already have 40 Cobra's. Add to this another 10-40 Apache's....Boy this is one large force. This equates to 200-230 very capable and modern Attack Helis.

Considering the T-129 is equivalent to or better than the Apache, this is surely a tank busting team.

The current agreement with AugustaWestland is for 50+1 T-129 units to be procured for Turkish Armed Forces. There is another 40 on option for further negotiations. The figure 150 provided below is misleading.

A-129 has not been combat tested, and T-129 has not flown yet. With less engine power, and weapon load than AH-64, we are yet to see its effectiveness in the hot and high terrain conditions of SE Turkey. My personal opinion is that the T-129 needs to be compared to the AH-1, not the AH-64.

Originally Posted by Ucar

The current agreement with AugustaWestland is for 50+1 T-129 units to be procured for Turkish Armed Forces. There is another 40 on option for further negotiations. The figure 150 provided below is misleading.

A-129 has not been combat tested, and T-129 has not flown yet (Yes correct). With less engine power, and weapon load than AH-64, we are yet to see its effectiveness in the hot and high terrain conditions of SE Turkey. I disagree. The T-129 will not use the engine currently used by the A-129. The T-129 will use two LHTEC T800 engines which was designed for the Comache program. This will give the T-129 20% more hovering altitude. The T-129 will be more agile. Also don't forget the AH-64 was desiged with Cold-war mentality....There was no asymetric threats being taken into consideration. Turkey needs something which is multi-role, more agile and can be used in tight valleys such as those found in northern iraq against terrorist targets. The extensive use of composites in the T-129 will also make it significantly lighter. My personal opinion is that the T-129 needs to be compared to the AH-1, not the AH-64.

My superiors and the US Navy does not say so.....

Heres what the US Navy says:
“TURKEY’S RESPONSE TO THREATS OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”

In April of 1996, the Turkish military announced a 30-year $150 billion coproduction deal with foreign partners. The program includes plans for the acquisition of 640 combat aircraft, 750 helicopters and the purchase of four airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft for delivery by 2003. The building of 24 additional F-16 fighters and modernizing and upgrading of seven tanker aircraft, donated by the USA are also among the procurement plans.

Also do not forget the initial Bell order (which was cancelled) was for 145 Attack helis! See Attack Helicopter Sale
Journal of Turkish Defense News ATAK Scanner News

The Turkish Land Forces has approved plans to acquire AT LEAST 145. Also, please look at "Vision 2005" (Visyon 2005)- the Turkish Government document outlining defence procurement plans for this century.

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

until the indegenous Turkish Attack helicopter (T-129) enters into service in 2011.

T-129 is NOT an indigenous design.

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

My superiors and the US Navy does not say so.....

Who are you and who are your superiors?

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Who are you and who are your superiors?

Khan Han ?

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Who are you and who are your superiors?

I work for a Turkish company which is a subconttractor in the T-129 project. The paperwork and data we have been receiving is for more than 120 units....

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

T-129 is NOT an indigenous design.

who said it is?. It is an indegenous integration projects. The avionics, Electro-Optics Sensor System, weapons systems, mission computer, wiring, EFIS cockpit displays are all Turkish designed and manufactured. Please check the agreement terms with Agusta. The first batch of 30 will have alot of Italian components. But Turkish Configurations 2 and 3 will have much more Turkish components. The project will eventually become 100% Turkish. That was the aim of the whole tender and this is why several of the other companies were not selected. In fact, Denel had offered a 50% more cheaper alternative but could not acommadate Turkish needs.

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

It is an indegenous integration projects. The avionics, Electro-Optics Sensor System, weapons systems, mission computer, wiring, EFIS cockpit displays are all Turkish designed and manufactured.

The fact that T-129 uses some indigenous electronics and weapons DOESN'T make it an *indegenous Turkish Attack helicopter* as is disingenuously claimed in the first post.

Besides, TUC-1 (30 helos out of 50) will NOT use indigenous missiles and helmet-mounted cueing system.

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

My superiors and the US Navy does not say so.....

Heres what the US Navy says:
“TURKEY’S RESPONSE TO THREATS OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”

Also do not forget the initial Bell order (which was cancelled) was for 145 Attack helis! See Attack Helicopter Sale
Journal of Turkish Defense News ATAK Scanner News

The Turkish Land Forces has approved plans to acquire AT LEAST 145. Also, please look at "Vision 2005" (Visyon 2005)- the Turkish Government document outlining defence procurement plans for this century.

Here are my comments about your remarks

1 - "The 20% more hovering altitude" is very vague. Can you tell us what the benchmark value is in determining this increase ? Taken from Wikipedia, this reference is not very clear.
2 - AH-64 units have been operating in Afghanistan, which has a geography very much like SE Turkey, if not more rugged, with a high degree of success and user satisfaction. You can check Apache unit performances and effectiveness in Operation Enduring Freedom on open sources. The AH-64 has proven itself to be a platform with exceptional CAS ability, and survivability.
3 - The initial ATAK project was cancelled due to a multitude of restraints. First and foremost was budget concerns. Secondly, although Turkish Armed Forces preferred AH-1 or AH-64 over any other platforms, due to problems in technology transfer, software codes and Offset obligations, the first ATAK project was cancelled. Let us remember here that AH-1 Super Cobra was the winner.

T-129 is a second/third choice for the Turkish Armed Forces. This is a story similar to T-155 Firtina which had to be co-developed with S.Korea after German denial for the transfer of certain subsystems for a PzH2000 based system to be developed.

Turkish Armed Forces asked for greater firepower, proven technology and ownership of all licences in both cases. When these were refused, they had to make to with second or third choices.

I do not think it is fruitful to compare a light/medium attack helicopter like the T-129 with AH-64, which itself is a benchmark among attack helicopter platforms. Let us see the T-129 fly first. I hope it does not end up like the Eryx project...

Originally Posted by Ucar

Here are my comments about your remarks

1 - "The 20% more hovering altitude" is very vague. Can you tell us what the benchmark value is in determining this increase ? Taken from Wikipedia, this reference is not very clear. By the way I am the one who put that on Wiki :-)The benchmark is the current hovering altitude of the A-129.
2 - AH-64 units have been operating in Afghanistan, which has a geography very much like SE Turkey, if not more rugged, with a high degree of success and user satisfaction. You can check Apache unit performances and effectiveness in Operation Enduring Freedom on open sources. The AH-64 has proven itself to be a platform with exceptional CAS ability, and survivability. Haven't the apache's been grounded if not pulled back in Afghanistan?
3 - The initial ATAK project was cancelled due to a multitude of restraints. First and foremost was budget concerns. Secondly, although Turkish Armed Forces preferred AH-1 or AH-64 over any other platforms, due to problems in technology transfer, software codes and Offset obligations, the first ATAK project was cancelled. Let us remember here that AH-1 Super Cobra was the winner. Yes I do not dispute this however, when the ATAK I tender was cancelled the Turkish GDP (PPP) was about $300 billion. Today it is closer to $1 trillion. ATAK I shows that the military establishment requires 145 new attack helis. Furthermore, I work for a company which is a sub-contractor in the T-129 project. All tenders we have provided regarding a "part" we will supply to them, has been for 120 units. I am thinking you cannot have 3 times the number as spares? Unless I am mistaken.
T-129 is a second/third choice for the Turkish Armed Forces. This is a story similar to T-155 Firtina which had to be co-developed with S.Korea after German denial for the transfer of certain subsystems for a PzH2000 based system to be developed. Again true. Apache was first choice, King Cobra second, A-129 third. However, this does not mean that they are inferior. In fact, for Turkeys needs I believe that it is more than sufficient. We do not need to lock onto 250 targets. This is cold war mentality. Turkey faces asymetric threats. Especially, in Northern Iraq. If the apaches are for Thrace, I will be more than happy. However, if they are to be used in Anatolia against the PKK, I believe the Cobra's are better equipped.

Turkish Armed Forces asked for greater firepower, proven technology and ownership of all licences in both cases. When these were refused, they had to make to with second or third choices. This confirms my previous posts that Turkey is seeking self-sufficiency in arms procurement.

I do not think it is fruitful to compare a light/medium attack helicopter like the T-129 with AH-64, which itself is a benchmark among attack helicopter platforms. Let us see the T-129 fly first. I hope it does not end up like the Eryx project...

Also, do you know about the outcome of the court proceedings regarding the Eryx project? I am eager to find out. Aparently, the Eryx missiles missed 72% of the time during testing conducted by the Turkish Armed Forces.

Originally Posted by Ucar

Here are my comments about your remarks
.
2 - AH-64 units have been operating in Afghanistan, which has a geography very much like SE Turkey, if not more rugged, with a high degree of success and user satisfaction. You can check Apache unit performances and effectiveness in Operation Enduring Freedom on open sources. The AH-64 has proven itself to be a platform with exceptional CAS ability, and survivability.
3 - The initial ATAK project was cancelled due to a multitude of restraints. First and foremost was budget concerns. Secondly, although Turkish Armed Forces preferred AH-1 or AH-64 over any other platforms, due to problems in technology transfer, software codes and Offset obligations, the first ATAK project was cancelled. Let us remember here that AH-1 Super Cobra was the winner.

AH-1s have proven to have better High/hot capabilities. Also better at the higher altitudes. They can perform missions at altitudes that Apaches cannot reach.

I could see why they would be a better choice for Turkey.

One of the reasons that the USMC has kept theirs for so long.