Thread: Turkey unveils new indigenous rifles for Land Forces...

Originally Posted by Tronic

T6 is derivative of Arjun? Links? And, Can you tell me the difference between the Arjun and the Bhim? They are entirely different class of weapons mate.

Yes, yes we know the Arjun is an MBT and the Bhim is a self-propelled howitzer. However, there is commonality between both their chassis. In fact, there are Bridge layers and Armoured engineering vehicles also based on the Arjun MBT chassis.

Regarding the Arjun...I can simply say that there is alot of foreign support. The armour of the Arjun is a variant of the British "Chobhem" armor. The integrated semi-automatic fire control system based on ballistic computer is also not Indian but rather provided by the Spanish company "ENOSA". Add to this the German "MTU" 838 KA 501 ten cylinder diesel engine.


DENEL, Elbit, IAI, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, and a whole list of other international defense companies have been very active in India, providing technical know-how where and when needed, it is no secret. But if that makes a system non-indegineous, then just how much indegineous do you think these new rifles and that Turkish turret you keep talking about are?

I know for a fact that the Turkish MBT and Turrets amongst other items are or will be 100% Turkish made. This is because the current Turkish Government has insisted on innovation rather than procurement. They are paying double of what it will cost to purchase in order to develop it themselves. Turkish Laws have also been amended in this regard. The current Turkish Prime Minister has stated that they expect Turkey to be one of the major weapons producing countries within 10 years. In fact, that is why a majority of US companies is having alot of trouble selling Turkey weapons.


DRDO for the entire Arjun project, but for the turret, more specifically, CVRDE.

CVRDE has had foreign support. This cannot be denied. There is evidence of this all over the web.



If they were all "joint-ventures", then all these weapons and the Indian defense industry would have been sunk during sanctions, my friend.

I did not say "all" Indian weapons are the product of joint-ventures. India in actual fact produces some originals weapons.

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Yes, yes we know the Arjun is an MBT and the Bhim is a self-propelled howitzer. However, there is commonality between both their chassis. In fact, there are Bridge layers and Armoured engineering vehicles also based on the Arjun MBT chassis.

Khan,

Originally Posted by Tronic

Yes, the Bhim is an entirely different project (artillery and not a tank) and is suppose to be a hybrid between the Arjun and T6.

The armour of the Arjun is a variant of the British "Chobhem" armor.

No, wrong again mate. India had approached the British ages ago to jointly develop a composite armour, the British refused and went on to develop the Chobbam. Arjun's Kanchan armour is a totally different project which uses different composites then the Chobbam armour.

The integrated semi-automatic fire control system based on ballistic computer is also not Indian but rather provided by the Spanish company "ENOSA".

The Fire Control System on the Arjun is the BE (Bharat Electronics) AL-4421 Mk.1B Digital FCS. Bharat Electronics is an Indian company, not Spanish.

As for the whole FCS package like laser rangefinders, ballistic computers, sensors, etc etc; that is the child of IRDE.

Add to this the German "MTU" 838 KA 501 ten cylinder diesel engine.

I'll give you that. India still does not have its own engine to place in the Arjun, but work is going on at CVRDE to produce a 1500hp engine for it. (I think the Germans refuse to sell the 1500hp engines they have in the Leo2).

CVRDE has had foreign support. This cannot be denied. There is evidence of this all over the web.

Khan, no one is denying;

Originally Posted by Tronic

DENEL, Elbit, IAI, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, and a whole list of other international defense companies have been very active in India, providing technical know-how where and when needed, it is no secret.

[btw, my mistake, CVRDE is not responsible for Arjun's turret, it is ARDE (Armament Research & Development Establishment)]

Anyways mate, Don't know how the discussion went from discussing turrets to the nuts and bolts of the Arjun, but I think that is enough of this thread hijack. If you want to discuss anything on the Arjun, feel free to PM me. btw, I'd be very interested to know what sources you are using for your info.

I know for a fact that the Turkish MBT and Turrets amongst other items are or will be 100% Turkish made. This is because the current Turkish Government has insisted on innovation rather than procurement. They are paying double of what it will cost to purchase in order to develop it themselves. Turkish Laws have also been amended in this regard. The current Turkish Prime Minister has stated that they expect Turkey to be one of the major weapons producing countries within 10 years. In fact, that is why a majority of US companies is having alot of trouble selling Turkey weapons.

Funny, that is the same thing Indian leaders were dreaming of 30 years ago; the problem is not money, the problem is time. I have no doubts that Turkey can develop a 100% Turkish MBT, but for that, it will take quite a lot of time without any external know how. Maybe they can look at Indian projects and learn from our delays, when India was placed under sanctions, a lot of the components on the Arjun and more specifically the LCA had to be home-built. A simple thing like the landing gear which would take a few months to develop turned into years of development without any technical know how. Other countries have already gone through the process of building and making mistakes and then refining them. For you to do the same, you are looking at decades of development experience. However, I doubt that Turkish government is that naive; maybe that is why they choose to look at German turrets rather then go on, on their own?

Not the differences!

Ok the scope is Canadian - BTW with a rail system the scopes and backup sights can be changed.

They didn't reinvent the ****ing wheel here... )

i am not a pro. about rifles but it doesnt look a new rifle...quite similar to m16/m4's isnt it?

Originally Posted by troung

Ok the scope is Canadian - BTW with a rail system the scopes and backup sights can be changed.

They didn't reinvent the ****ing wheel here... )

The butt is different too and so are the mechanisms...

MKEK will manufacture 1.2 million units of this rifle over a period of 6 years. The first batch of 300,000 units is expected to enter service within 12 months.

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Not the differences!

I'm afraid I don't see a lot of evidence of new design in the picture, since most of those mods and optics can be mail-ordered from Soldier Of Fortune magazine.

However the internal workings may be different I don't know.