US Army Gets New Rifle?

**toemag** · 25 Apr 08,, 08:21

Originally Posted by Ucar

With all due respect Sir, I also think along the lines that Blademaster presented. I think it is a matter of the infantry tactics you have trained along.

Our basic infantry training in the Turkish Armed Forces focuses on suppression fire and maneuver ending in encirclement. Much of the actual combat training in units deployed in SE Turkey focuses on urban warfare, mountain warfare, fire and maneuver. We do not train our recruits to become marksman, quite contrary to US emphasis on rifleman, we train them to heed orders and maneuver under fire without heavy weapons or artillery support. Thus, our emphasis is not on good shooting, but on the capability to sustain suppression and movement supported by greater firepower provided by 7.62 mm infantry rifle since heavier support is usually unavailable. We usually do not have the chance to fix opposing forces in place, and call in good Sir S-2 and his howitzers

In the case our infantry gets lucky and hits someone, we prefer them dead, rather than out of combat, since our regular opponents have a tendency to reappear in combat with sustained wounds.

You will note that our Commando and SF units prefer 5.56 calibre rifles rather than 7.62 mm. This is where placement becomes more important than stopping power, since such units are used to eliminate encircled enemy forces and focus on marksmanship as a major part of their training regime.

Shortly, I think tactics and infantry training decides the utility of 5.56 over the 7.62.

Words fail me

I'm with those who say no need for a change unless we make the move to a new type of ray gun or something, anything else is just reinventing the wheel and paying through the nose for it, denying other's of those funds. Having the newest trendiest gun on the battlefield is okay if it represents your country's technological standards, but keeping abreast of the Joneses is a ridiculous reason.

As OoE., has stated. I also learned how to shoot with the SLR L1A1 / FN FAL / G1 / Stgw 58 or whatever you prefer to call it, it was a good service Rifle, that when mastered was more than capable, anyone ever wonder why they had a .22 conversion kit for them?? The M4 M16 can get new recruits shooting for gold from the word go with the right tuition.

As for the Super duper modded to death clone's, be it the MR223 or the 416's, yeah whatever. It's still very much the same same, doing the same same for the same same at a much higher price.

Tony

**Ucar** · 25 Apr 08,, 11:05

Sir

I am not advocating the 7.62 over 5.56 or vice versa. I am only trying to explain why we do some things as we do them.

Turkish Armed Forces does not have the resources, training infrastructure or adequate trainers to train all recruits who will leave service within 5 to 12 months of arriving at a unit-depending on service period. The inflow ranges between 80-120k new recruits every 3 months. Therefore, we focus on another aspect of infantry training. We simply do not possess the physical resource to have all recruits to shoot 1000+ rounds of ammo in order to become accomplished marksman. Therefore, we teach the greater part of recruits to keep low, keep moving, and fire at 25 meters. On the other hand, in some selected units, we teach them to shoot well, since they will be doing a lot of that on the field.

We have not kept the 7.62 for so long because it was superior to the 5.56 . We kept it because of economics, and learned to adopt ourselves to battlefield reality as it exists in SE Turkey. Out of this adoptation since 1980s, was born the decision to train ourselves as we do, which turned out to be surprisingly effective in its area of operations. There is a reason why we do things differently than US or UK military. We expect to fight differently.

I have not understood a significant portion of your message because of language inadequacy on my part. I am not familiar with most of the idioms you have used. Sorry if my above explanations do not correspond to your remarks.

**Triple C** · 25 Apr 08,, 12:38

A USMC sergeant in tanknet was adamant that the 7.62 is a much more powerful cartridge than the 5.56 especially in first round hits. But he also noted that a typical Marine is not a good enough shot with the 7.62 , while the 5.56 improves their marksmanship considerably. "This will surprise you--and it makes no sense to me--that most combat infantry are not well-trained riflemen" were his words.

Those are US Marines that he was talking about. Think about it.

**militarymafia** · 28 Apr 08,, 00:37

I think gunpowder and the bullet have outlived their usefullness. If the USA really wants to be superior and effective in combat, they should concentrate their budget and research on more high energy weapons such guns you see in Star Wars.

No, I'm not joking when I say this. I'm dead serious. Think about it --- metal is a material than can be stopped, but a right amount of energy can penetrate through the hardest of elements.

Beam/laser/high energy weaponary is already being developed for destroying planes and missles etc.

But how about self rechargable weapon with unlimited amounts of ammo in the form of an assault rifle? Sounds good right? Plus you can pierce through any armour you see fit, be it bulletproof vests or the thickest vehicle armour.

What do you guys think about this???

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Apr 08,, 00:52

I'm thinking good bye

**m1tch311** · 28 Apr 08,, 01:42

wow OoE you should be a professional jerk!! You're really good at being offensive and eating your words!

**Shek** · 28 Apr 08,, 01:52

Take a 24 hour time out. For someone who wants to join the Army, you should learn a little bit about respect for those who have already served as well as recognize a professional opinion when it is given.

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Apr 08,, 02:15

Originally Posted by m1tch311

wow OoE you should be a professional jerk!! You're really good at being offensive and eating your words!

Nice going, son. Thus far, you've p!ssed off two Majors and a Lieutenant-Colonel.

**TopHatter** · 28 Apr 08,, 02:18

Originally Posted by Shek

Take a 24 hour time out. For someone who wants to join the Army, you should learn a little bit about respect for those who have already served as well as recognize a professional opinion when it is given.

And that'll your only time-out "m1tch"

Just in case there is any question among our members, Major Shek is being extremely indulgent with this punk kid.

Must have had a particularly delicious dinner tonight

)

**dark-alias** · 28 Apr 08,, 03:41

my apologies gentlemen, officers, and distinguished visitors i feel i am late in arriving to the meat of the debate....however i would like to add my 2/ or 3 cents. All of the following comes from my personal/first-hand experience. I love the M4 and so do alot of my counterparts and some of the other SOF units that pass by..alot of the reasons why was already covered in the last 9 pages of fierce debate...the only complaint i have for my current weapons system is the bolt design...the jamming...double feeds....and it takes a very special touch to get that star-fish completey clean..that little bugger..anyone can quote me on this (my weapon can shoot 1016 rds. before the carbon buildup is so great that the system starts to malfunction frequently and i am sure all of you will agree that, that is completey acceptable.) just remember to clean that weapon!

**Blue** · 28 Apr 08,, 04:20

After reading most of these posts I get the feeling that many want a totally new weapon to replace the m4 but I just don;t see this happening and IMO would be a mistake anyway. Here are a couple of facts from an old grunt that used these weapons a lot.

First in regards to the m-16. It is a precision instrument. It requires more maint than anything and a troop should be happy to do it. Your life may depend on it. I used to train people on this weapon. Usually someone experiencing problems could be placed on the operator. Lubrication, gas ring alignment, poor/incomplete cleaning. Most who experience this usually blame the weapon.

Now this is where I may offend some and I AM NOT criticizing the quality of our current troops but I think this has something to do with it. I served about twenty years ago. We didn't have all the technology available today. We didn't have internet, video cameras, cell phones and all this distracting gagetry. We spent our time cleaning, maintaining and training with our weapons and gear even if it/we didn't really need it. We did this primarily because there was nothing else to do. If lucky, we got one or two calls home a month while deployed. I have stacks of letters still today as reminders of this. I know guys now that take a cell or a laptop and talk every day back home. There are hundreds of videos on you tube right from the front lines. This is distracting from the job at hand and equipment suffers. I firmly believe this a factor in the m4 argument.

I don't see anything anything wrong with what our guys are using now. I didn't see anything wrong with what I used. When I saw what other forces where using it was easy to see I had the best.

The 1911 didn't need replaced-They did, and then we wanted it back.
The m-16 has been serving for around 40 years.
they tried to get rid of the m14 until we brought it back as the m21 and then the recent resurgence in popularity of the original m14.

The m16 was rushed into vietnam and we all know how those guys felt about it at first with all the problems it had. I don't think this would be a good time to introduce a new weapon anyway.

sometimes new is not better but that doesn't mean we can't improve upon it. There is a new gas piston system for the ar that I intend to purchase just as soon as I can afford it. I think if they wanted to improve the dirt tolerance factor for the m4/m16 then refit it with this. There is actually a kit in development that will utilize the orig bolt and reciever.

Check it out.http://www.pof-usa.com/articles/P416Torture.pdf

Besides, our congress is much too busy to be bothered with the needs of our troops. There are much more important issues like investigating steroid use in major league baseball, building bridges to nowhere and CRAP like that.

**Blue** · 28 Apr 08,, 04:30

Originally Posted by dark-alias

....and it takes a very special touch to get that star-fish completey clean..that little bugger..anyone can quote me on this (my weapon can shoot 1016 rds. before the carbon buildup is so great that the system starts to malfunction frequently and i am sure all of you will agree that, that is completey acceptable.) just remember to clean that weapon!

I was busy typing and didn't see your post until I had put mine up. It seems we are on the same sheet of music. I would be interested to hear your assesment of the rest of my opinion, as I assume you are currently serving.

**dark-alias** · 28 Apr 08,, 04:42

From one muzzle flash to another...

i agree with that those who blame their weapon for a malf. or complication tend not to treat her with the respect and love that she deserves. When i have angel out of her cage...she is the center of my universe and gets alot of attention.

i disagree with the statement that b/c of advances in tech./gear that our troopers have gotten sloppy on maint. and cleaning. It is still all we do when there is nothing going on. Nothing personal but there might of been alot more of "nothing going on" twenty years ago but with all of our added gear today we have to spread our time out cleaning more and more and more equip. due to tech. there has been added distractions to the workplace, but i promise you I do my absolute best everyday to maintain the character and traditions of military service, my guys know this very well firsthand.

I just wish my guys today could of walked one week in your shoes so they would stop complaining so much...but you know what they say.. when troops stop complaining something is wrong.

**Blue** · 28 Apr 08,, 05:17

Originally Posted by dark-alias

i disagree with the statement that b/c of advances in tech./gear that our troopers have gotten sloppy on maint. and cleaning. It is still all we do when there is nothing going on. Nothing personal but there might of been alot more of "nothing going on" twenty years ago.

Just to be clear, no disrespect intended. I was basing this on observations made by some friends and family members who served in Iraq. A cousin who served in 4th ID told me some pretty ridiculous tales that were examples of what I was saying. Tech as far as GPS, better radios, weapons optics, all good IMO. I was just referring to the personal item distractions. All units have some slackers including my own. Its just that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. We used to say that the squeeky wheel gets "greased".

As for the late eighties. Well, it just depended on what job you had and where you went.

**dark-alias** · 28 Apr 08,, 05:20

None taken at all. I respect your professional and personal opinion good sir. I do rather enjoy your post's, maybe its because its b/c of the similar slates