India Vs. China (borderline War)

**k19** · 03 Feb 05,, 17:29

When did you last fight a war with Japan? How friendly is China with Japan?? It may be a poor analogy, but the scar still remains.

since you take Japan as a stand, i will answer it expecially. and you decide what is fair.

the following was a letter i wrote to CNN, never get their attention, not suprised, how can they put a Pro-china view on the air and it was against their "friendlys" as well..

========================
I was surprised that how American and English news Medias cover "the English Prince Harry Nazi Dressing" incidence that happened a month ago, and how people react to it, (added: in fact, there were on the CNN talking yesterday). What really confused me is that why western people see it as a very big deal, but when the pre-minister of Japan---one of the three former axis of evil's leader today, can go to the temple to honor the war criminals year after year, and the Japanese right-wing can dress up with WW2 clothes dancing on the street without any problem and never get world’s attention. (added: 7 A-class and thousands B-class crimals), also, there was a news that germany government were trying to cut down a piece of forests, because you could see it forms a "evil sign in the air. (added: it was planted by some people to impress the hitler, it was been cuted down years ago, but those trees just growing so fast and is there again.) After suffering 50,000,000 death and injures in WW2 in China alone, people's live went backwards tens of years, and billions dollars damages done by the Japanese, it's really not quite hard to understand Chinese people's anger isn't it; With the kindness of Chinese people, who even revived the entire national war indemnity, then Japanese government uses this as a excuse to deny any indemnity for any Chinese individuals' law suits who suffered so much at that time(such as force labors, women been raped...), 300,000 people in a city been reduced to less than hundreds survivors who are been left out to clean the dead, and they were denying it today (added: well, it was really have to not admit it when actually seeing the stockpiles of human skuals and bones in many holes, thousands of them in a single hole, and many holes were there); when chinese people still can accidently dig out a chemical bombs which left by them, and twice a year, tens of people died from that, and they still refuse to hand over documents that would show how many are there and where, it could be under a people's basement, or even near a water pipes..... it's really not quite hard to understand Chinese people's anger isn't it. That’s only the part of it; Japan never had peace toward china in the history before WW2 as well, Endless disturbing assaults and rubbings happened throughout the coast cities in the past 500 years

Does Japan deserve the treatments today, just because its pro-western view and all history should be forgotten? So every crime is just not that “important to remember” when was against a “communist country”? .....

Well, you be the judge, it is not just a scar, it is still opened wound! nobody cared, nobody! the same as Korean people, both north and south, but where is the world standing on those issues??? no, they were too busy to allie eachother against the commists and trade! when you blame the NK pissing off the world, why nobody noticed why they were so against Japan in the party talk? when japan was mentioning their citizen been kidnaped, why nobody cares what they had done in WW2 and never apologized? why germany has to apoligize every single years to the world but japan could walk away with such crime? and on the other hand, china has to take the "threat of the Aisan pecific" on our head when Japan was laughing in American's arm?? is that hard for them just issue an apology, somehow with their action, which, REALLY, i mean REALLY reduce the anger to the minimum, Aisa would be a much more safer place! I mean, how would a country, even gave up their national war indemnity, centries of hate, just want a peace in exchange, you just have to deny it? and where is the world opinion? Mr. American, you used to be attacked too...

how friendly? last year's trade, Japan is is the biggest trading partner even top US! but the the politics cold as stone, because of their history standing.

**k19** · 03 Feb 05,, 19:14

[quote][Aksai Chin was never a part of China. As Lemontree said it was ruled by Kashmir kings/quote]

Well, whoever that king was, it's clearly not part of the deal when china, india and british, even russia and Tibet played out at that time. when the british was there controling india, there was a dispute until they left. so it was a dispute land. be realistic here, the article clearly doesn't mention a "king" there arguing the land.

The key issue was the 1956-57 construction of a Chinese military highway in the disputed territory of Aksai China just west of Tibet.

i have siad, the road is a factor, but it was still 1957 and we have 5 years to deal with it peacefully. i have siad it before, both size failed i do agree the road was strategic important, the land is strategic important to china, that's why china never give up the fight for that land for three different governments, not only communist government would do so, which was really china, india and british were "dispute" about. 2 years of not knowing a road was built does show the land was not strategic important to india, expecially when they fully understand the land is on dispute, could be set aside, could be taken by both sides, really. We were having border dispute with the Russians too that time wasn't we,

In 1959, India initiated a forward policy...Indian troops and border patrols into disputed areas. This program created both skirmishes and deteriorating relations between India and China.

that's where the problem showed up, i have to say, and i have said before, it is failed by both sides could not talk to settle the problem. politically failed. china did offer the land, which can be considered a positive move, but india refused. was the russians never said a word then attacked the chinese at the border?

Chinese civilains cannot freely say their opinions to the world.

what i am doing now? perhaps, this issue is not political sensitive anyway, i can ensure you about that. and was the Maxwell's book been baned in india for a long time too? the problem is, not many people would sit down and talk peacefully, or have the willingness to talk. i do learn a lot these couple of days, and attend to agree on many points made by different people here, and a lot of details have been speake out.

Atleast CCP/PLA dont have that problem, coz they dont face elections after every 5 years.

yeah, that's true, but still, both government should pushed it forward sooner, especially on those party talks. good thing is it seems really pick up the past now. the government of china is a reality government too, nowadays, who is not.

So does that mean I can get in to your home and take an un-used corner under the notion that its un-used??

nuh, it is more like i stockpiled my firewood against your garden's wall, you told me it is your property, but i say it was outside of the garden and you don't need it anyways.

China didnt "give" India 68% of land. Chinese simply say Arunachal Pradesh is disputed and they gave away that for free. Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim were already part of India.

32% of land falls in Aksai Chin which China originally occupied from India which that still remains under China.

here we go again, blame the english people, the other part was even more clearly their "tressure" to us. and we do give it back even after the war.

China is ruled by CPC. They dont have to face elections every 5 years. Its the Indian govt that will be crushed on any sovreign issues. Taiwan is already independent, did the Chinese people crushed Mao's govt for that??

try again, Taiwan even wanted to fight back and taking over the mainland at that time, both side were pertty clear, there is only one China! people respected eachother that still have the will of unity. it is the bad apples right now which trying to sepreate Taiwan as a independent country without chinese identity. china doesn't care and never requested a immidiate unity, but as long as you are admiting 1 china, that will be fine. so their resists the communist china rule was never the case. I don't care who rules china, as long as it's 1 china, i can be a ROC citizen or a PRC citizen, but a chinese citizen, simple as that.Mao never took the Taiwan, in fact, if anyone let taiwan go independent today, you will see what chinese people would do to him, just wait for regime change...

See above, any concessions to China will be viewed as treachery in India. Lets say, Indian politics is too complicated for you to understand.

undersanding the canadians and americans politics pertty well, i am living under freedom right now anyway! name one country that let their part go with peace except canada, china is not fedeal systems anyway and we don't have french vs english peoblem, we are all chinese!

[quote][Time can answer that better!
/quote]

hope so, i hope it could be a good one, nationalism, sounds good, but often lead to bad things. if our economic ties grow stronger, people meet more often, the problem would be easier to solve, chinese people's mind changed when they grow richer, really, i can prove that. everyday shoulding the propadanda won't get your bread and milk, be realistic and work do.

**Jay** · 03 Feb 05,, 21:07

Well, whoever that king was, it's clearly not part of the deal when china, india and british, even russia and Tibet played out at that time. when the british was there controling india, there was a dispute until they left. so it was a dispute land. be realistic here, the article clearly doesn't mention a "king" there arguing the land.

Actually neither of them disputed until India discovered the road. China printed the disputed area as their own land in their official maps, while India did the same. British added Aksai Chin in their official maps based on the fact that Kashmiri ruler had jurisdication over it and Kashmiri King was serving under the British Royalty.

i have siad, the road is a factor, but it was still 1957 and we have 5 years to deal with it peacefully. i have siad it before, both size failed i do agree the road was strategic important, the land is strategic important to china, that's why china never give up the fight for that land for three different governments, not only communist government would do so, which was really china, india and british were "dispute" about. 2 years of not knowing a road was built does show the land was not strategic important to india, expecially when they fully understand the land is on dispute, could be set aside, could be taken by both sides, really.

It may be a trivial land for India or may be not. Now Aksai Chin is very important to India, so that we can monitor the highway that connects China to Pakistan. So do you want India to attack/occupy Aksai Chin coz its strategic to them now?? When the occupation/accession is in question, it really doesnt matter whether you keep on fighting for Aksai Chin or its strategic importance. Sovreignity is a different ball game.

We were having border dispute with the Russians too that time wasn't we,

China (PLA) at that time very well know that they cannot fight a war against then USSR. It was way over their capability to fight a bloody war with Russia.
Thats why they negotiated, as soon as they got the chance.

that's where the problem showed up, i have to say, and i have said before, it is failed by both sides could not talk to settle the problem. politically failed. china did offer the land, which can be considered a positive move,

Again, what ever China thought positive didnt go well with India's stand, as the Indians thot/think that it was unfair to India.

what i am doing now? perhaps, this issue is not political sensitive anyway, i can ensure you about that.

May be, bcoz the war was fought in the poorly populated western sector.

and was the Maxwell's book been baned in india for a long time too?

I think so, not sure whether they lifted the ban now. It wud've been politically suicide for the Congress/Nehru if they dint ban it, not to mention that Nehru and his croonies were responsible for the Army's poor show.

the problem is, not many people would sit down and talk peacefully, or have the willingness to talk.

They were caught in a time warp, both Indian and Chinese leaders.

good thing is it seems really pick up the past now. the government of china is a reality government too, nowadays, who is not.

Still the people of China has no say in their foreign policy, which is (was) totally important in then Indian politics. Only the last couple federal elections had major domestic issues manifesto's.

nuh, it is more like i stockpiled my firewood against your garden's wall, you told me it is your property, but i say it was outside of the garden and you don't need it anyways.

Legally, If its my wall, (both the sides), I'll not agree to it, unless you are a nice friendly neighbour. You needed a favor from me, who's got more responsibility??

here we go again, blame the english people, the other part was even more clearly their "tressure" to us. and we do give it back even after the war.

Err, blaming them is not going to solve a thing. India inherited the land and its problems from British India.

try again, Taiwan even wanted to fight back and taking over the mainland at that time, both side were pertty clear, there is only one China! people respected eachother that still have the will of unity.

I know that they have only 1 china in the diplomatic circles. But Taiwan is a seperate entity that cannot be tied with PRC.

undersanding the canadians and americans politics pertty well, i am living under freedom right now anyway! name one country that let their part go with peace except canada, china is not fedeal systems anyway and we don't have french vs english peoblem, we are all chinese!

Actually Indian politics is way muddier than Canada or even US politics.

everyday shoulding the propadanda won't get your bread and milk, be realistic and work do.

Well, we understood that very well. Like Japan-China trade, India-China trade is booming too. Though the border disputes are cold, it does not mean that they wont flare up again.

**cooldw57** · 23 Feb 05,, 04:02

Originally Posted by Jay

I know that they have only 1 china in the diplomatic circles. But Taiwan is a seperate entity that cannot be tied with PRC. .

So is Kashmire, no ties with India

**lemontree** · 23 Feb 05,, 05:02

Originally Posted by cooldw57

So is Kashmire, no ties with India

You are right in a way, Pakistan occupied Kashmir(POK) and Chinese occupied Kashmir(Aksai Chin) have no ties with India. Only the Indian Jammu and Kashmir is a part of India. The problem in Kashmir involves three govts of India, PRC and Pakistan.
Whereas, Taiwan is the creation due a civil war between the KMT and CCP. Relating Kashmir with Taiwan is out of context.

**Jay** · 23 Feb 05,, 09:19

Originally Posted by cooldw57

So is Kashmire, no ties with India

Kashmire...havent heard of it.

But there is Jammu & Kashmir, a state in Northern India, which chose its rulers last year, yep the people chose their leaders by voting in the elections....may be Chinese officials blocked that news, Sorry!!

There is one more Kashmir, Pakistani Occupied (PoK) which has a seperate ruler appointed by the supreme ruler of Pakistan, and one more Aksai Chin, which MAY be at offlimits to ordinary Chinese. Either way you have to talk to the CCP propoganda officials to get more info about J&K, PoK and Aksai Chin.

**cooldw57** · 24 Feb 05,, 04:32

Originally Posted by Jay

Kashmire...havent heard of it.

But there is Jammu & Kashmir, a state in Northern India, which chose its rulers last year, yep the people chose their leaders by voting in the elections....may be Chinese officials blocked that news, Sorry!!

There is one more Kashmir, Pakistani Occupied (PoK) which has a seperate ruler appointed by the supreme ruler of Pakistan, and one more Aksai Chin, which MAY be at offlimits to ordinary Chinese. Either way you have to talk to the CCP propoganda officials to get more info about J&K, PoK and Aksai Chin.

To me, there's no difference between Taiwan and Kashmir. Why can't China and India let them go free?

And sorry, I have no ties to the CCP whatsoever despite your ample imagination. I am a naval engineer working for the DoD

**lemontree** · 24 Feb 05,, 05:16

Originally Posted by cooldw57

To me, there's no difference between Taiwan and Kashmir. Why can't China and India let them go free?

India is sitting in Kashmir and it rules it, but PRC is not in ROC and does not rule it.
A Big difference. You are out of context.

**stratadmir** · 24 Feb 05,, 19:08

one thing that i was thinkin of. Pakisatan does not like India much anyway, so Chine may be able to get them to build another pipeline leading more north so that the Indians dont attack that. Another thing Chine would be able to throw in more of ots army into the fray because it does not have border problems with Pakistan or anyother country(that im aware of) so India would probably have to tie up some of it own army on the border of Pakistan just to keep them at bay. Is there any other border problems the Indians have besides China and Pakistan.

**lemontree** · 25 Feb 05,, 04:41

Originally Posted by stratadmir

one thing that i was thinkin of. Pakisatan does not like India much anyway, so Chine may be able to get them to build another pipeline leading more north so that the Indians dont attack that.

That would not be possible, since the north-western part of Pakistan is bounded by Afghanistan, which is not very comfy with Pakistan. Even if the Pak govt has a deal with the Afghani regime, the North west frontier provinces of Pakistan are a law and order nightmare. Those tribles would have a field day and would bleed the Pak govt dry over the safety of the piplines. Those NWFP tribals and Pak govt don't vibe.

Another thing Chine would be able to throw in more of ots army into the fray because it does not have border problems with Pakistan or anyother country(that im aware of) so India would probably have to tie up some of it own army on the border of Pakistan just to keep them at bay. Is there any other border problems the Indians have besides China and Pakistan.

That is not a problem with India. It has dealt with the Chinese threat of a second front, during past Indo-Pak wars. A combined Sino-Pak effort on a single front would simplify things for India.
India has no other border problems. There was a minor issue with Bangladesh but it has been sorted out.

**Jay** · 25 Feb 05,, 11:24

Originally Posted by stratadmir

Another thing Chine would be able to throw in more of ots army into the fray because it does not have border problems with Pakistan or anyother country(that im aware of)

Ever heard of Taiwan and Spratley Islands??

**Jay** · 25 Feb 05,, 11:29

Originally Posted by cooldw57

To me, there's no difference between Taiwan and Kashmir. Why can't China and India let them go free?

And sorry, I have no ties to the CCP whatsoever despite your ample imagination. I am a naval engineer working for the DoD

Last time I checked Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir had a Chief Minister, who was bounded by Indian Constitution and the state's economy/political/foreign/security rites well managed by Federal India.

But IIRC, Taiwan had democratic elections (oopsie cant find them in China), people voted (yep) to elect their President. PRC had no control over ROC's economy/Politics/Foreign policy/Military.

Either Kashmir declared independence from Indian Union in last 2 mins or Taiwan was attacked and occupied by China in the same 2 mins.

I dont care who you are, your rantings are almost similar to a PRC CCP propoganda person.

**metalbeast** · 01 Mar 05,, 20:55

China is revamping it's army to be smaller, but better supplied, and equiped. India on the other hand has huge logistical problem that China has had and has right now with the amount of weapons which one could consider redundant in artillery for example. India has all kinds of artillery of different calibres, weights, and ranges. To minimize complexity of supply nations like the USA and Russia primarily support two kinds of gun artillery on the battlefield. India supplies all the guns of USA and Russia. Chinese are looking for better equipment, simplier supplying of it's armed forces. They thinking about increasing the Navy as well. In my opinion I think China would win. I think China is more industrialized than India. With the modernizing of the military, China will be better in logistics.

**ajaybhutani** · 01 Mar 05,, 23:49

Originally Posted by metalbeast

China is revamping it's army to be smaller, but better supplied, and equiped. India on the other hand has huge logistical problem that China has had and has right now with the amount of weapons which one could consider redundant in artillery for example. India has all kinds of artillery of different calibres, weights, and ranges. To minimize complexity of supply nations like the USA and Russia primarily support two kinds of gun artillery on the battlefield. India supplies all the guns of USA and Russia. Chinese are looking for better equipment, simplier supplying of it's armed forces. They thinking about increasing the Navy as well. In my opinion I think China would win. I think China is more industrialized than India. With the modernizing of the military, China will be better in logistics.

a good thought but it would be nice if u could add more facts to it . Like chineese current equipments and proposals along with the indian ones ( and russian and american ones) . Or else it would sound like just a view point .

**Terran empire** · 02 Mar 05,, 00:34

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

a good thought but it would be nice if u could add more facts to it . Like Chinese current equipments and proposals along with the indian ones ( and russian and american ones) . Or else it would sound like just a view point .

I don't have any thing on india but this site is pretty good for the new chinese weapon systems
Including there new Attack helicopter, Rifles, Apc's, tanks, Hummer clone just about every thing
http://www.sinodefence.com/