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Thread: India Vs. China (borderline War)

  1. #151
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    Col yu, lemontree,

    do you have an time estimate (as in roughly what year) the tables of military power changed? as in when it no longer became possible for the PLA to win like it did in the '62 war?
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

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  2. #152
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    We simply cannot go to war its as simple as that, right now
    so this is kinda hypothetical discussion about after 40 years if we went to war what will happen.

    China has bigger threats to focus like taiwan etc etc and their all jets are faced that wards.
    indians should not even think of going in any war now but should think how can they compete economy wise when it comes to resources like natural gas etc in africa etc with china.

    recently they have made a MOU or whatever to bid jointly for most oilfields etc etc.
    There is a invisible bond between india and china yet there is so many farness between the two cuz of pas memories and the way govt is playing with borders and trying with a ridicule foreign policy.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by joey View Post
    We simply cannot go to war its as simple as that, right now
    so this is kinda hypothetical discussion about after 40 years if we went to war what will happen.

    China has bigger threats to focus like taiwan etc etc and their all jets are faced that wards.
    indians should not even think of going in any war now but should think how can they compete economy wise when it comes to resources like natural gas etc in africa etc with china.

    recently they have made a MOU or whatever to bid jointly for most oilfields etc etc.
    .
    That's a pure wet dream. Why would Chinese oil companies willingly relinquish their turf wile scouting for oil. Most of the Chinese oil companies are government linked oil companies with no commitment to share holders. OTOH, Indian oil companies are answerable to share holders, so they can't simply outbid the Chinese oil companies period.....

    There is a invisible bond between india and china yet there is so many farness between the two cuz of pas memories and the way govt is playing with borders and trying with a ridicule foreign policy
    Not that same Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai BS again.......
    Seek Save Serve Medic

  4. #154
    joey2
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    That's a pure wet dream. Why would Chinese oil companies willingly relinquish their turf wile scouting for oil. Most of the Chinese oil companies are government linked oil companies with no commitment to share holders. OTOH, Indian oil companies are answerable to share holders, so they can't simply outbid the Chinese oil companies period.....
    I'll saw the news somewhere, indias oil minister's friend is chinas some very high level external affairs or whatever minister.

    sorry its natural gas and not oil.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by y_raj View Post
    i agree with you wangrui,
    it would be better if they join hands and form an alliance along with russia, which is regarded as apossibility by many. but it seems a bit hard after seeing the chinese posture towards pakistan and its help to pakistan to make nukes and SRBMs as well as MRBMs.
    I don't know wether China govment helped Pakstian making nukes ,but Pakstain's nuke is much lacker than India's . India has the world's sixth nuke,No one dare to nuke India , Pakstain inculuded.
    Last edited by wangrui961; 02 Dec 06, at 13:04. Reason: spell

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    Quote Originally Posted by chopchop View Post
    india has a military without any fighters let it be air, ground, or sea. when i say fighters, i mean men with the courage to fight and not run.
    what a lame comment!!no prizes for guessing which military has a lot of 'fighters'...i presume!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by goram_vlad View Post
    what a lame comment!!no prizes for guessing which military has a lot of 'fighters'...i presume!!!
    Yup!

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Col yu, lemontree,

    do you have an time estimate (as in roughly what year) the tables of military power changed? as in when it no longer became possible for the PLA to win like it did in the '62 war?
    The day Indian Army deployed on the borders properly acclimatised and kitted and that was after 1962 when the Defence Minister Krishna Menon, who was actually a Communist in disguise was sacked!

    The mountains now being held in a military manner (unlike the knee jerk of 1962) makes it immensely difficult for large scale troop movements or so it appears logically speaking.
    Last edited by Ray; 25 Dec 06, at 20:22.


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  9. #159
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    ray,

    much thanks for that info!

    regarding acclimatization, and other matters, is there a specific history of the '62 war that anyone can refer me to? what i'm asking is, how long did the chinese prepare for this war in advance.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
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    Merry Christmas and happy new year to everyone !

    Those who are in US and Canada are still writing for the forum during Christmas holiday. We surely need to make some contribution to the forum too.



    Dear Indian friends,

    No offense to the Indian friends. In this article, I just wanted to present China’s view on the Sino-China border war in 1962. If you think that some part of my writings is wrong, please correct me. I do make mistake sometime.

    It seems that Indians all blame China for the border conflict and accuse that “China back stabling India”. The historic records do not support your blame and accusation. Also, it seems that my Chinese friends in this forum did not present historic records on the Sino-India border conflict. I would like to make some changes here.

    There are 3 disputed areas between China and India. They are:
    • Disputed East section: 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu), Indian call it NEFA (North East Frontier Agency) until 1972, Arunachal Pradesh, after 1972. The 藏南地区 is ~ 90,000 square kilometers, under India’s control.
    • Disputed Central section: ~ 2000 square kilometers, both China and India control part of it. China and India has exchanged the maps about each other’s LOC (Line Of Control). It seems that the dispute in this area is relatively close to be solved.
    • Disputed West section: Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦), ~ 33,000 square kilometers under China’s control.

    Today, I would like to concentrate my discussion on the dispute of East section, 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu). The border line claimed by China in this area is the traditional line which is the southern rim of Himalayas. Historically, Tibetans or Tibetan culture influenced people were the main residents north of this line. Today, after several dozens years of Indian’s immigrating into this area, Tibetan becomes the minority.

    The border line claimed by India is the infamous McMahon Line, which was drawn by McMahon, a foreigner who colonized India. I hope that our Indian friends will not thank this colonizer for this artificial McMahon line.

    The McMahon Line was a byproduct of Simla Convention in 1913-1914. The original goal of this Convention for British is to separate part of Tibet from China. The British secretly made a deal with the Tibetan negotiator. They promised that if the Tibetan gave up its 藏南地区, which means to accept the McMahon Line, they will force China to accept a border between Tibet and China. Chinese government knew the conspiracy and did not want to join the Convention. But China was so weak at that time and was forced to join the Convention. The British made a draft proposal, which separates Tibet into an inner Tibet that would be part of China and an outer Tibet that would be independent. The Chinese negotiator 陈贻范 was not very brave. Although he made lot of efforts to resist signing the draft, after months of bullied by the British, he signed the draft at early April, 1914. But 陈贻范 is smart enough to add sentences in the draft to declare that his signature is not official unless approved by Chinese government. While the Chinese government refused that draft immediately and ordered 陈贻范 not to sign any documents without the pre-approval of Chinese government.

    As a Chinese, we need to thank 陆兴祺, a Chinese national hero, who was the Chinese representative in Calcutta, India at that time. He set up the Chinese negotiation strategy at Simla Convention. The strategy is that although we were forced to join the Convention, we would not accept anything. Also, he knew that Europe is on the way to WWI. British would not be able to bully China using military force. In this way, China would leave a record that China attended the Convention but not accept any agreements. The communications between 陆兴祺 and Beijing was intercepted and decoded by the British. But because the China’s strategy was so simple and straight forward, it did not help the British much. Without military backup, the British had no option but giving up the conspiracy of separating part of Tibet from China.

    The greedy British still wanted to get something though. They wanted the McMahon Line to get 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) from Tibet/China. Because of Chinese government’s firm position in border negotiation, the British can not get Chinese negotiator 陈贻范 signed the agreement. The British forced the Tibetan to sign the agreement on McMahon line. No Chinese governments accepted the McMahon line. Therefore, China always calls McMahon line illegal and 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) a disputed area.

    Even the elite Indians do not think that 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of India. A map on the first edition of “Discovery of India” published in 1946 by the later Indian PM Nehru shows 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of Tibet/China. A map in the biography of Gandhi published by Robert Payne in 1969 also shows 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of Tibet/China.

    For the map signed between British and Tibetan in Simla Convention, 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) was put into India, but on the same map, Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) was in the Tibet/China. India’s claim on Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) is also not any more solid compare to China’s claim. In my opinion, India’s claim is weaker. I may make a discussion on the history of Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) dispute later in this forum if I am not too busy with my work.

    With so many problems of India’s claiming of 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) and Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦), India did not even accept the fact that those places are disputed areas. In 1957, Chinese PM Zhou Enlai proposed a solution that both sides kept the LOC (Line of Control), which means that China accepts the India’s control over 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu), while India accepts the China’s control over Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). India did not accept any compromise. India put China’s leaving Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) as a prerequisite condition for the peace negotiation. The China’s National Highway 219 connecting Tibet and Xinjiang goes through Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). There is no way that China would give up Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). But very strange, Indian believed that China would give up.

    It is really India’s policies that push the Sino-India border dispute into military confrontation. India supported anti-China terrorist operations of a small group Tibetan in Tibet. I say that those operations were terrorist operations because they kill innocent Chinese people (Han, Tibetan and other minorities). India restricted anti-China terrorist operations from India after 1962 Sino-India border war.

    India invented a “Forward Policy” at early 1960 to build posts around or even behind Chinese posts. Indian PM Nehru also publicly announced that he has ordered the India army to remove Chinese army from the disputed areas on 10/12/1962. General Kaul (ranked second in the Indian army) planned “Operation Leghorn” to implement Nehru’s political ambition to drive Chinese out. By the middle of 1962, India left only two options for China, retreating from all India claimed territory or striking back. China selected the later. Zhou Enlai told Indian that India can not treat China as a defeated country and force it to accept a humiliating option. China did not do the back stabbing. China made repeat warnings that China will strike back if India continues to challenge its sovereignty over its territory using “Forward Policy”. It is unbelievable that Indian government chose to totally ignore the repeat warning from Chinese government. India must have overestimated the difficulty of China. At that time China was still suffering from the disaster of the Great Leap Forward (大跃进). Even American government had learnt a lesson and did not ignore the warnings from Chinese government. In Korean War, China claimed if non-South Korean UN troop passes the 38 parallel, China will intervene. General MacArthur ignored this warning and China took the action to drive him back from Yalu River. In US-Vietnam war, China claimed if US ground force passes the 17th parallel, China will intervene. The US ground force did not pass the 17th parallel.

    In the East section, following the “Forward Policy” India set Dhola Post (多拉哨所) on /06/04/1962 in the north of McMahon line that was claimed by India as its border. So, even by India’s standard, Indian army had invaded China’s territory. China protested India’s Dhola Post (多拉哨所) through diplomatic measures and also set up post in the opposite side of the Namka Chu river (克节朗河). But India claimed that the Sino-India border should be at Thagla Ridge (塔格拉山脊), which is behind Chinese post and north of McMahon line. So, India’s behavior showed that India did not even honor the McMahon line. Before setting up Dhola Post (多拉哨所), India nerve claimed that India has land north of McMahon line. Now, India wanted to even make unilateral changes on McMahon line to India’s advantage. India’s this action changed entire picture of the Sino-India border dispute. If China let this action no checked, India can make any unilateral changes as it wants. China made decision to check this India’s action.

    Although, the exact date when China decided to strike back is not known. Some people believe that it is around the time when India set up Dhola Post (多拉哨所). Some Chinese articles about Sino-India border war said that when Mao and his generals heard that Indian army set up Dhola Post (多拉哨所) in north of McMahon line, they were very happy, because the striking back would be easily justified when the Indian army was invading Chinese territory. The top rank generals in the central command in Beijing are very cautious. They suggested a very limit operation to destroy only the 7th Brigade commanded by general Dalvi in the Namka Chu area (克节朗地区) to show China’s determination of protecting its territory and let India stop its “Forward Policy”. But the general 张国华 who directly commanded the east section operation in Tibet insisted a larger scale operation. He wanted at least to drive Indian army out from Tawang district (达旺地区) or even entire 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu). Mao agreed general 张国华’s plan and wanted to teach Nehru a lesson. Mao was afraid that only destroying the Indian 7th Brigade would not teach Nehru a good lesson. He said “we need this war to bring at least 30 years of peace between China and India”.

    After Indian 7th Brigade was destroyed and general Dalvi was captured by Chinese army, India army gave up Tawang district (达旺地区) without a fight. The east section had mainly three fights, first fight: 10/20/1962 to 10/24/1962 in Namka Chu (克节朗) and Tawang (达旺) areas, second fight: 11/16/1962 to 11/17/1962 in Walong area (瓦弄地区), and third fight: 11/18/1962 to 11/20/1962 in Se la (色拉), Dirang Dzong (德让宗) and Bomdi La (邦迪拉) areas, which Chinese army cuts off Indian army’s retreat pass between Dirang Dzong (德让宗) and Bomdi La (邦迪拉) through Bailey Trail. By the early morning around 3:00am on 11/20/1962, the Indian army’s organized resistance in 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) vanished. The Indian army’s organized resistance in Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) had been vanished earlier. By then, China achieved its politic goal of the war.

    China informed Indian embassy in Beijing late 11/19/1962 on China’s unilateral cease fire at 11/21/1962 morning and China’s planned withdraw at 12/01/1962. But somehow this important information did not reach Indian government until more than 24 hours later. In 11/20/1962, Indian PM Nehru forgot his non-alliance leader status and asked US to send USAF to attack Chinese troop and protect Indian cities from the air attack of Chinese air force. Finally, at early morning of 11/21/1962, Indian government got the information that Chinese has announced unilateral cease fire from Indian news papers.

    In a hope of recovering Sino-China relation as soon as possible, China respected Indian POW’s dignity and released them unconditionally. China even returned the captured Indian weapons and equipments. China also withdrew its troop to its position at 11/07/1959. Someone argues that Chinese troop has to withdraw because it would be defeated if it didn’t. This argument is partly correct and partly wrong. China does not need to withdraw to its position at 11/07/1959. At least, China can set up defenses at Walong area (瓦弄地区) and Se la pass (色拉山口) where China has the logistical advantage. It would be a disaster for India army to attach these two places when winter was coming. China showed its respect to India without occupying more territory and hoped that India respects China too. Finally, both countries showed their respects to each other and accepted cease fire agreement arranged by Sri Lanka, Egypt, Cambodia, and Indonesia. The war officially ended.

    On the Sino-India border, neither side can penetrate the other side very far even today. The logistical difficult over the Himalaya will bring the disaster. For China, without really penetrating very far, it will threaten Assam, the populous and developed areas. The fight over Assam will cause big damage to India. Of course, Chinese troop can not stay in Assam. It needs to withdraw when the political goal is reached. On the other hand, even if India penetrates far into Tibet, it can not destroy anything. If China block some mountain passes or bomb some mountain passes and make them impossible to pass, Indian troop will be cut off from India. Winter will do the same thing. Even if China did not win all the battles, China will win the war if Indian comes to Tibet. Listen to Mao’s military strategy, "The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy halts, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue.” China is guarantied to win the war. Now the railway and fuel pipe have been connected to Lhasa. They will be extended to Shigatse in near future. China’s logistical ability has been exponentially improved in Tibet. Any war in Tibet will be disaster for India. India may block the Chinese oil import fleets on Indian Ocean, which will hurt Chinese economy but would not stop Chinese war ability. China still provides 60% of its domestic oil supply. The oil supply from central Asia and Russia may still flow. Today, a Sino-India war will be hurting both sides without either side gain anything because both sides need to retreat back to its side of Himalaya. So the Sino-India war should never happen again. We should learn from our past experiences.

    In fact, the 1962 Sino-India war can be avoided if India accepted China’s proposal, which is the situation now. But today, many Sino-India experts in Beijing expressed their objections on accepting a border agreement with India under the existing situation. They want that at least India returns Tawang district (达旺地区) to China, which has a very strong historic relation with Tibet. The Tawany temple (达旺寺) is important to Tibetan religion. One of the greatest Dalai Lama, the 6th Dalai Lama, was born in Tawang district (达旺地区). Tibetan ruled the Tawang district (达旺地区) until 1930s or even into 1940s.

    For last several years, China and India are improving their relation. A couple of years ago, when visiting India, Chinese PM Zhu Rongji said that we trust that Indian will not shoot us and we know that we will not shoot Indian. So, there is trust between us. When we trust each other to this degree, we can seat together to discuss our problems peacefully.

    Some of you may think that Neville Maxwell’s “India’s China war” is pro-China. May be you can read “The China-India Border War” written by CALVIN, James Barnard, Lieutenant Commander of US navy in 1984 at: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1984/CJB.htm

    I am not sure if the US navy commander is also pro-China. If it is true, it is great. We may get help from US navy in our next war.

  11. #161
    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    ray,

    much thanks for that info!

    regarding acclimatization, and other matters, is there a specific history of the '62 war that anyone can refer me to? what i'm asking is, how long did the chinese prepare for this war in advance.
    They had prepared and of that there is no doubt.

    The Chinese are very farsighted and their policy is deeper than what meets the eye.

    Indians had no clue of 1962 and even now have no clue about the going ons within the Chinese domain before 1962. Lost in pink clouds was our venerable PM, Pt Jawahar lal Nehru!

    His daughter was a leader par excellence!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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  12. #162
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    Chop Chop,

    This forum is a serious forum where intelligent interaction occurs, even if divergent in views.

    Juvenile comments and rantings do jar and bring the standard of the forum to disrepute.

    May I request you to bone up on the issue that you wish to project, rather than be at sixes and sevens and end up being the star attraction of Barnum and Bailey?


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  13. #163
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    Pin,

    Lamb is a pro Pakistan writer and is not quite an authority. His books debunk even facts that are axiomatic. A Colonel Brown so to say.

    Neville Maxwell is tongue in cheek in his debunking of India and Indian politics.

    James Barnard banks heavily on this two authors and hence obviously one could draw the conclusion that it is not beyond bias.

    When one writes a dissertation for his Staff College course, one likes to be scintillating and brilliant. Hence, one prefers to be thought provoking, in other words, controversial to catch the eye of the evaluators and quoting extensively from published work, albeit biased. The evaluators have no option but to take it as read.

    Been there, though avoided that!

    Nonetheless, it was refreshing to hear your views. It adds to my knowledge.

    My dissertation was "Communism a Threat to India". They thought that being a person from an Indian State ruled by the Communists, I would have a better idea of the shenanigans of the Indian Communists!

    BTW, my state continues to be run by Communists, but they have now turned captialists like China.
    Last edited by Ray; 26 Dec 06, at 14:06.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    Quote Originally Posted by pin_qinghai View Post
    Those who are in US and Canada are still writing for the forum during Christmas holiday. We surely need to make some contribution to the forum too.



    Dear Indian friends,

    No offense to the Indian friends. In this article, I just wanted to present China’s view on the Sino-China border war in 1962. If you think that some part of my writings is wrong, please correct me. I do make mistake sometime.

    It seems that Indians all blame China for the border conflict and accuse that “China back stabling India”. The historic records do not support your blame and accusation. Also, it seems that my Chinese friends in this forum did not present historic records on the Sino-India border conflict. I would like to make some changes here.

    There are 3 disputed areas between China and India. They are:
    • Disputed East section: 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu), Indian call it NEFA (North East Frontier Agency) until 1972, Arunachal Pradesh, after 1972. The 藏南地区 is ~ 90,000 square kilometers, under India’s control.
    • Disputed Central section: ~ 2000 square kilometers, both China and India control part of it. China and India has exchanged the maps about each other’s LOC (Line Of Control). It seems that the dispute in this area is relatively close to be solved.
    • Disputed West section: Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦), ~ 33,000 square kilometers under China’s control.

    Today, I would like to concentrate my discussion on the dispute of East section, 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu). The border line claimed by China in this area is the traditional line which is the southern rim of Himalayas. Historically, Tibetans or Tibetan culture influenced people were the main residents north of this line. Today, after several dozens years of Indian’s immigrating into this area, Tibetan becomes the minority.

    The border line claimed by India is the infamous McMahon Line, which was drawn by McMahon, a foreigner who colonized India. I hope that our Indian friends will not thank this colonizer for this artificial McMahon line.

    The McMahon Line was a byproduct of Simla Convention in 1913-1914. The original goal of this Convention for British is to separate part of Tibet from China. The British secretly made a deal with the Tibetan negotiator. They promised that if the Tibetan gave up its 藏南地区, which means to accept the McMahon Line, they will force China to accept a border between Tibet and China. Chinese government knew the conspiracy and did not want to join the Convention. But China was so weak at that time and was forced to join the Convention. The British made a draft proposal, which separates Tibet into an inner Tibet that would be part of China and an outer Tibet that would be independent. The Chinese negotiator 陈贻范 was not very brave. Although he made lot of efforts to resist signing the draft, after months of bullied by the British, he signed the draft at early April, 1914. But 陈贻范 is smart enough to add sentences in the draft to declare that his signature is not official unless approved by Chinese government. While the Chinese government refused that draft immediately and ordered 陈贻范 not to sign any documents without the pre-approval of Chinese government.

    As a Chinese, we need to thank 陆兴祺, a Chinese national hero, who was the Chinese representative in Calcutta, India at that time. He set up the Chinese negotiation strategy at Simla Convention. The strategy is that although we were forced to join the Convention, we would not accept anything. Also, he knew that Europe is on the way to WWI. British would not be able to bully China using military force. In this way, China would leave a record that China attended the Convention but not accept any agreements. The communications between 陆兴祺 and Beijing was intercepted and decoded by the British. But because the China’s strategy was so simple and straight forward, it did not help the British much. Without military backup, the British had no option but giving up the conspiracy of separating part of Tibet from China.

    The greedy British still wanted to get something though. They wanted the McMahon Line to get 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) from Tibet/China. Because of Chinese government’s firm position in border negotiation, the British can not get Chinese negotiator 陈贻范 signed the agreement. The British forced the Tibetan to sign the agreement on McMahon line. No Chinese governments accepted the McMahon line. Therefore, China always calls McMahon line illegal and 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) a disputed area.

    Even the elite Indians do not think that 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of India. A map on the first edition of “Discovery of India” published in 1946 by the later Indian PM Nehru shows 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of Tibet/China. A map in the biography of Gandhi published by Robert Payne in 1969 also shows 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) is part of Tibet/China.

    For the map signed between British and Tibetan in Simla Convention, 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) was put into India, but on the same map, Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) was in the Tibet/China. India’s claim on Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) is also not any more solid compare to China’s claim. In my opinion, India’s claim is weaker. I may make a discussion on the history of Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) dispute later in this forum if I am not too busy with my work.

    With so many problems of India’s claiming of 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) and Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦), India did not even accept the fact that those places are disputed areas. In 1957, Chinese PM Zhou Enlai proposed a solution that both sides kept the LOC (Line of Control), which means that China accepts the India’s control over 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu), while India accepts the China’s control over Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). India did not accept any compromise. India put China’s leaving Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) as a prerequisite condition for the peace negotiation. The China’s National Highway 219 connecting Tibet and Xinjiang goes through Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). There is no way that China would give up Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦). But very strange, Indian believed that China would give up.

    It is really India’s policies that push the Sino-India border dispute into military confrontation. India supported anti-China terrorist operations of a small group Tibetan in Tibet. I say that those operations were terrorist operations because they kill innocent Chinese people (Han, Tibetan and other minorities). India restricted anti-China terrorist operations from India after 1962 Sino-India border war.

    India invented a “Forward Policy” at early 1960 to build posts around or even behind Chinese posts. Indian PM Nehru also publicly announced that he has ordered the India army to remove Chinese army from the disputed areas on 10/12/1962. General Kaul (ranked second in the Indian army) planned “Operation Leghorn” to implement Nehru’s political ambition to drive Chinese out. By the middle of 1962, India left only two options for China, retreating from all India claimed territory or striking back. China selected the later. Zhou Enlai told Indian that India can not treat China as a defeated country and force it to accept a humiliating option. China did not do the back stabbing. China made repeat warnings that China will strike back if India continues to challenge its sovereignty over its territory using “Forward Policy”. It is unbelievable that Indian government chose to totally ignore the repeat warning from Chinese government. India must have overestimated the difficulty of China. At that time China was still suffering from the disaster of the Great Leap Forward (大跃进). Even American government had learnt a lesson and did not ignore the warnings from Chinese government. In Korean War, China claimed if non-South Korean UN troop passes the 38 parallel, China will intervene. General MacArthur ignored this warning and China took the action to drive him back from Yalu River. In US-Vietnam war, China claimed if US ground force passes the 17th parallel, China will intervene. The US ground force did not pass the 17th parallel.

    In the East section, following the “Forward Policy” India set Dhola Post (多拉哨所) on /06/04/1962 in the north of McMahon line that was claimed by India as its border. So, even by India’s standard, Indian army had invaded China’s territory. China protested India’s Dhola Post (多拉哨所) through diplomatic measures and also set up post in the opposite side of the Namka Chu river (克节朗河). But India claimed that the Sino-India border should be at Thagla Ridge (塔格拉山脊), which is behind Chinese post and north of McMahon line. So, India’s behavior showed that India did not even honor the McMahon line. Before setting up Dhola Post (多拉哨所), India nerve claimed that India has land north of McMahon line. Now, India wanted to even make unilateral changes on McMahon line to India’s advantage. India’s this action changed entire picture of the Sino-India border dispute. If China let this action no checked, India can make any unilateral changes as it wants. China made decision to check this India’s action.

    Although, the exact date when China decided to strike back is not known. Some people believe that it is around the time when India set up Dhola Post (多拉哨所). Some Chinese articles about Sino-India border war said that when Mao and his generals heard that Indian army set up Dhola Post (多拉哨所) in north of McMahon line, they were very happy, because the striking back would be easily justified when the Indian army was invading Chinese territory. The top rank generals in the central command in Beijing are very cautious. They suggested a very limit operation to destroy only the 7th Brigade commanded by general Dalvi in the Namka Chu area (克节朗地区) to show China’s determination of protecting its territory and let India stop its “Forward Policy”. But the general 张国华 who directly commanded the east section operation in Tibet insisted a larger scale operation. He wanted at least to drive Indian army out from Tawang district (达旺地区) or even entire 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu). Mao agreed general 张国华’s plan and wanted to teach Nehru a lesson. Mao was afraid that only destroying the Indian 7th Brigade would not teach Nehru a good lesson. He said “we need this war to bring at least 30 years of peace between China and India”.

    After Indian 7th Brigade was destroyed and general Dalvi was captured by Chinese army, India army gave up Tawang district (达旺地区) without a fight. The east section had mainly three fights, first fight: 10/20/1962 to 10/24/1962 in Namka Chu (克节朗) and Tawang (达旺) areas, second fight: 11/16/1962 to 11/17/1962 in Walong area (瓦弄地区), and third fight: 11/18/1962 to 11/20/1962 in Se la (色拉), Dirang Dzong (德让宗) and Bomdi La (邦迪拉) areas, which Chinese army cuts off Indian army’s retreat pass between Dirang Dzong (德让宗) and Bomdi La (邦迪拉) through Bailey Trail. By the early morning around 3:00am on 11/20/1962, the Indian army’s organized resistance in 藏南地区 (Zang Nan Di Qu) vanished. The Indian army’s organized resistance in Aksai Chin (阿克赛钦) had been vanished earlier. By then, China achieved its politic goal of the war.

    China informed Indian embassy in Beijing late 11/19/1962 on China’s unilateral cease fire at 11/21/1962 morning and China’s planned withdraw at 12/01/1962. But somehow this important information did not reach Indian government until more than 24 hours later. In 11/20/1962, Indian PM Nehru forgot his non-alliance leader status and asked US to send USAF to attack Chinese troop and protect Indian cities from the air attack of Chinese air force. Finally, at early morning of 11/21/1962, Indian government got the information that Chinese has announced unilateral cease fire from Indian news papers.

    In a hope of recovering Sino-China relation as soon as possible, China respected Indian POW’s dignity and released them unconditionally. China even returned the captured Indian weapons and equipments. China also withdrew its troop to its position at 11/07/1959. Someone argues that Chinese troop has to withdraw because it would be defeated if it didn’t. This argument is partly correct and partly wrong. China does not need to withdraw to its position at 11/07/1959. At least, China can set up defenses at Walong area (瓦弄地区) and Se la pass (色拉山口) where China has the logistical advantage. It would be a disaster for India army to attach these two places when winter was coming. China showed its respect to India without occupying more territory and hoped that India respects China too. Finally, both countries showed their respects to each other and accepted cease fire agreement arranged by Sri Lanka, Egypt, Cambodia, and Indonesia. The war officially ended.

    On the Sino-India border, neither side can penetrate the other side very far even today. The logistical difficult over the Himalaya will bring the disaster. For China, without really penetrating very far, it will threaten Assam, the populous and developed areas. The fight over Assam will cause big damage to India. Of course, Chinese troop can not stay in Assam. It needs to withdraw when the political goal is reached. On the other hand, even if India penetrates far into Tibet, it can not destroy anything. If China block some mountain passes or bomb some mountain passes and make them impossible to pass, Indian troop will be cut off from India. Winter will do the same thing. Even if China did not win all the battles, China will win the war if Indian comes to Tibet. Listen to Mao’s military strategy, "The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy halts, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue.” China is guarantied to win the war. Now the railway and fuel pipe have been connected to Lhasa. They will be extended to Shigatse in near future. China’s logistical ability has been exponentially improved in Tibet. Any war in Tibet will be disaster for India. India may block the Chinese oil import fleets on Indian Ocean, which will hurt Chinese economy but would not stop Chinese war ability. China still provides 60% of its domestic oil supply. The oil supply from central Asia and Russia may still flow. Today, a Sino-India war will be hurting both sides without either side gain anything because both sides need to retreat back to its side of Himalaya. So the Sino-India war should never happen again. We should learn from our past experiences.

    In fact, the 1962 Sino-India war can be avoided if India accepted China’s proposal, which is the situation now. But today, many Sino-India experts in Beijing expressed their objections on accepting a border agreement with India under the existing situation. They want that at least India returns Tawang district (达旺地区) to China, which has a very strong historic relation with Tibet. The Tawany temple (达旺寺) is important to Tibetan religion. One of the greatest Dalai Lama, the 6th Dalai Lama, was born in Tawang district (达旺地区). Tibetan ruled the Tawang district (达旺地区) until 1930s or even into 1940s.

    For last several years, China and India are improving their relation. A couple of years ago, when visiting India, Chinese PM Zhu Rongji said that we trust that Indian will not shoot us and we know that we will not shoot Indian. So, there is trust between us. When we trust each other to this degree, we can seat together to discuss our problems peacefully.

    Some of you may think that Neville Maxwell’s “India’s China war” is pro-China. May be you can read “The China-India Border War” written by CALVIN, James Barnard, Lieutenant Commander of US navy in 1984 at: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1984/CJB.htm

    I am not sure if the US navy commander is also pro-China. If it is true, it is great. We may get help from US navy in our next war.
    BG Ray has already answered as to why the three authors are not credible. So please shove your moralist preachings in some other place.
    If you want a better account of why China attacked India read this by Garver, a well respected Sinologist....

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnston/garver.pdf

    PS: I don't buy the story of the "backstabbing" by China. Indian Foreign Minister Patel had correctly predicted in 1949 that China would be belligerent towards India over Tibet but Nehru chose to ignore him. The rest is history.....
    Last edited by 667medic; 26 Dec 06, at 14:37.
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    Ray
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    ibet and China: Two Distinct Views*

    Chinese History of Tibet | Tibetan History of Tibet
    World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet | World Governments Do Recognize Tibet Tibet Was Liberated | Tibet Was Not Liberated

    The Chinese History of Tibet
    Tibet has been part of China since the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). Centuries ago Mongol and Manchu Emperors ruled or influenced large parts of Asia. During the Tang period (618-907), the Tibetan King, Songsten Gampo, married Princess Wen Cheng. The Princess is thought to have had alot of influence in Tibet. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), Tibet was part of the Mongol Empire which was under Yuan rule. At this time, the Yuan Government implemented residence registration, levied taxes, and imposed corvee duties in Tibet. China's "White Paper" claims that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) "replaced the Yuan dynasty in China and inherited the right to rule Tibet." During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army on a number of occasions entered Tibet to protect it. Finally, in 1951, China and the Tibetan Local Government signed a 17-point agreement concerning the peaceful liberation of Tibet. During this time, The 14th Dalai Lama supported this liberation and acknowledged Tibet is one part of China.

    The Tibetan History of Tibet
    Tibet has a recorded history of statehood extending back to 127 B.C. In the seventh to ninth centuries, the Tibetans often bested the Tang dynasty in battle. Additionally, during this dynasty, the marriage of Princess Wen Cheng and King Gampo was viewed as a strategic move to achieve cooperation and peace between Tibet and China. In 821, after centuries of periodic fighting, China and Tibet signed a treaty where boundaries were confirmed, and each country promised respect for the other's territorial sovereignty. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), the Mongol leader, Genghis Khan, conquered most of Eurasia including China. Thus, instead of China claiming a right to Tibet, Mongolia could assert claim to both China and Tibet. There is no historic evidence to support the assumption that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) ruled Tibet. In fact, the Qing Emperor in 1652 not only accepted The Fifth Dalai Lama as a leader of an independent state, the Emperor also treated Him as a Divinity on Earth. During this period, Tibet was known in Chinese as Wu-si Zang or Wu-si Guo (guo meaning country). During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army was asked by Tibetans to settle disputes. But, this does not support China's right to Tibet. If it did, then the U.S.A. should claim Kuwait and Haiti since it assisted these countries. In fact, on a number of occasions, Tibet exercised power over China, suggesting that perhaps Tibet should claim China! At the time of China's invasion in 1949, Tibet possessed all the attributes of an independent country recognized by international law, including a defined territory, a government, tax system, unique currency, unique postal system and stamps, army, and the ability to carryout international relations. Two years later, the 17-point agreement was imposed on the Tibetan Government by the threat of arms after 40,000 PLA troops had already seized Tibetºs eastern provincial capital, Chamdo. The Tibetan delegates were threatened. The seal of the Tibetan Government was forged by Peking. In Tibet, The 14th Dalai Lama could not freely express His disapproval. However, soon after arriving in India, He repudiated this Agreement stating it was "thrust upon the Tibetan Government and people by the threat of arms." If Tibet had always been a part of China, why was there a need for the 17-point agreement? Finally, the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country that was never part of China at least before 1280.

    Chinese History of Tibet | Tibetan History of Tibet
    World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet | World Governments Do Recognize Tibet Tibet Was Liberated | Tibet Was Not Liberated

    World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet: China's Perspective
    China asserts that no country has ever recognized Tibet. China also contends that Britain masterminded the Simla Conference (1913-1914) in collusion with Tibetan pro-British individuals. Both wanted to separate Tibet from China. At the time of the Simla Conference, even though the "McMahon Line" was negotiated between Tibet and Britain, at the end of the tripartite conference on Tibet's status and boundaries, Chinese officials who were present refused to recognize the "Line" on the grounds that Tibet was subordinate to China and had no power to make any treaties.

    World Governments Recognize Tibet: The Tibetan Perspective
    International law states that recognition can occur by explicit or implicit acts including treaties, negotiations, and diplomatic relations. Mongolia and Tibet signed a formal treaty of recognition in 1913. Historically, Nepal and Tibet had peace treaties. Tibetºs independence was also confirmed at the Treaty of Simla (1914) which was concluded by Tibet and British India. In 1949, Tibet maintained diplomatic, economic, and cultural relations with such countries as Nepal, Sikkim, Mongolia, China, British India, and to some extent, Russia and Japan. Further, Nepal maintained an Ambassador in Lhasa and told the U.N. in 1949 that it conducted international relations with Tibet. In fact, Britian, Bhutan, India, and even China also maintained diplomatic missions in Tibet's capitol, Lhasa. The Tibetan Foreign Office conducted talks with President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he sent representatives to Lhasa to discuss the allied war effort against Japan during World War II. In 1950, El Salvador formally requested that China's aggression against Tibet be placed on the agenda of the U.N. General Assembly. The issue was not discussed. However, during four U.N. General Assembly debates on Tibet (1959, 1960, 1961, & 1965), many countries (e.g., Philippines, Nicaragua, Thailand. United States, Ireland) openly stated that Tibet was an independent country illegally occupied by China. In fact, the U.N. passed three resolutions (1959, 1961, & 1965) concerning Tibet stating that Tibetans were deprived of their inalienable rights to self-determination. Even Mao Zedong during the Long March admitted that Tibet was an independent country when he passed through the border regions of Tibet remarking, "This is our only foreign debt, and some day we must pay the Mantzu (sic) and the Tibetans for the provisions we were obliged to take from them." Tibetans clearly constitute a people under international law, as described, for instance, by the UNESCO International Meeting of Experts on Further Study of the Concept of the Rights of Peoples. They are a distinct people and fulfill all the characteristics of this concept: commonality of history, shared language, culture, and ethnicity.

    Chinese History of Tibet | Tibetan History of Tibet
    World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet | World Governments Do Recognize Tibet Tibet Was Liberated | Tibet Was Not Liberated

    Tibet Was Liberated: Chinaºs Perspective
    China states that its invasion and occupation of Tibet was designed to liberate Tibetans from medieval feudal serfdom and slavery. Tibetan serfs were thought to have no freedoms. They were regarded by their masters as talking animals. China argues that the masses of Tibetan serfs lived in extreme poverty. Since the liberation in 1959, China asserts that Tibetans have enjoyed all rights of equality and they have embarked on the road of freedom and happiness. China claims that Tibet is now a modernized community benefitting from economic growth and social progress. Millions of serfs are now the masters of their fate, and large numbers of Tibetan workers, intellectuals, and officials have taken up the task of building and managing Tibet. China argues that all Tibetans now have equal rights in politics, the economy, and in their daily life. Tibetans are also thought to enjoy full religious freedom. China claims that Tibetans have greatly benefitted from their presence. There are now over 2,500 primary schools in Tibet. Moreover, according to Chinaºs White Paper, China has invested 1.1 billion yuans to develop education in Tibet. Big strides have been made in education, science, culture, and public health. For instance, China argues that it has rebuilt Tibetan Monasteries, Nunneries, and monuments. Further, it asserts that the Tibetan population has soared to 2 million from 1 million in the 1950's. China also claims that the Tibetans fully support the Communist Party and Government officials in Tibet. China argues that negotiation is the only solution for Tibet, stating that The 14th Dalai Lama should size up the situation, go with the tide of historical development and make a correct choice.

    Tibet Was Not Liberated: The Tibetan Perspective
    Old Tibet was not perfect. The current Dalai Lama has admitted this. However, The 14th Dalai Lama initiated far-reaching reforms in Tibet as soon as He assumed temportal authority. Throughout Tibet's history, the mistreatment of peasants was forbidden by law and social norms. The largest portion of land in Tibet was held by peasants. Famine and starvation were unheard of in Tibet. The "liberation" has resulted in the death of over 1.2 million Tibetans and the destruction of over 6,000 Tibetan Monasteries and cultural centers. Before the "liberation" in 1959, the population of Tibet was 6 million. Prior to the invasion, Tibet was a simple and self-reliant nation with a very rich cultural heritage. Tibetºs citizens, in comparison to its' neighbors, enjoyed much greater freedom. Currently, Tibetans have become veritable serfs. In independent Tibet, over 6,000 Monasteries and Nunneries served as schools. Most were destroyed, and many have been reconstructed as result of Tibetan finances and labor. The teachers in China's "new schools" are unqualified to teach the Tibetan language, culture, or history. Chinese students are the main beneficiaries of these schools. Since 1980, over 15,000 Tibetan children have fled Tibet to receive education in India.The primary beneficiaries of Chinaºs presence in Tibet have been the Chinese settlers, their government and military, and their business enterprises. Former Communist Party Secretary, Hu Yaobang, even admitted in 1980 that the living standard of Tibetans had declined since 1959 and that the large Chinese presence was an obstacle to development. China's policies in Tibet do not even receive full support from Tibetan cadres, let alone the Tibetan people. China has never found a trustworthy Tibetan to serve in a key government post in Tibet. For the past 21 years, The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government In-Exile have offered a number of proposals for negotiations for the mutual benefit of Tibet and China. All have been ignored or rejected by China.

    *Note. These views were extracted from various Tibetan and Chinese printed materials.

    TIBET: A Brief History

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