View Poll Results: which is the best tank?

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  • M1A2 Abrams

    111 52.36%
  • Challenger II

    53 25.00%
  • T-80

    48 22.64%
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Thread: Which is the best tank?

  1. #16
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    Well said Sparky
    OK, yes the M1 has thus far faced only 20 year old export-model T-72's crewed by tankers with shoddy training compared to the United States, Great Britain etc.
    But the M1's have seen some hard use in a combat environment, more so than any other tank, including the Challenger II (a favorite of mine by the way).
    Also, how much combat has the Leopard 2 seen? I'll be the first to say it's a fine tank, but has it gotten the mud of a battlefield splashed on it, so to speak?
    Last edited by TopHatter; 25 Jan 04, at 20:58.
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  2. #17
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    Again, what about the Merkava? The Merk I, II and III have all seen battle time.
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  3. #18
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    bigross has a good point. The Israelis probably have more modern (post-WWII) armored combat experience than anyone else.
    I wonder how they would fare at the NTC?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  4. #19
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    The IsDF lost alot of combat power during the Intifada. Training and doctrinal developement gave way to actual work needing to be done to quell the uprising. Reservists who normally spend their time training was called up and training and money had to give way to doing actual patrols.

    Also, none of their battles would stand up in comparison to the meat grinders of WWII. While not discounting their worth, they do not have the experience of fighting a truly competent and effective enemy like the Wehrmacht in Oratona or Berlin.

    This is reflective of their MOUT doctrine of bringing tanks without inf support into the cities. I really doubt the IsDF would survive an Oratona.

  5. #20
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    What about 1973? That was all tanks. And Avigdor Kahalani holding back the whole Syrian Army with three tanks, scoring almost 200 kills?
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  6. #21
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    how'd they do that better training, better tanks or better tank rounds?
    two wrongs dont make a right but three wrongs do. ;D

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  7. #22
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    A number of factors, including but not limited to: Syrian stupidity and fear, Israeli training, and the Hand of God
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  8. #23
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    Originally posted by bigross86
    What about 1973? That was all tanks. And Avigdor Kahalani holding back the whole Syrian Army with three tanks, scoring almost 200 kills?
    Originally posted by bigross86
    A number of factors, including but not limited to: Syrian stupidity and fear, Israeli training, and the Hand of God
    I believe you answered your own question.. The Israelis never fought an adaptive enemy. It is not a fair comparison to those armies that had.

    In the case of the Wehrmacht, they took the lessons the enemy inflicted upon them and then outmaster the master. Chuikov was given the title of the father of MOUT (Military Operations in an Urban Terrain) development. However, he was surely outclassed by Kesselring.

    To give you an example, the Wehrmacht would hold a building, force the enemy to take the building, then blow up the building, hopefully to land on the road or better yet, a road with alot of troops and tanks, and then come again to take over the building ruins, forcing the enemy to retake it, using foot infantry because no tank was going to get by the rubble.

    The allied answer was simply to blow up the building in the first place, hopefully away from the road and then slug it out with superior numbers and fire.

    Where in all of the IsDF history did they face that kind of enemy?

  9. #24
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    that pretty much sums it up to win u need better everything.

    :D :D :sniper :taynk
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  10. #25
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    No, to win, you need to gain momentum and keep it.

  11. #26
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    even if your in the middle of a convoy? speeding up and crashing into a mate tank not a good idea. lol
    :D :D :sniper :taynk :taynk :taynk
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  12. #27
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    If you want to get cute, fine but don't try to ridicule what you don't understand.

  13. #28
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    hey i do understand momentum=life it like in a plane alt=life
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  14. #29
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    Tomas, your attempts at humor is not humoring anybody. I would suggest that you take a humor class before posting any attempt to humor.

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by tomas
    hey i do understand momentum=life it like in a plane alt=life
    No. You don't understand.

    Anyone who has ever studied Patton, Zuhkov, Montgomery, Napolean, Frederick knows how they burn men and material just to keep their momentum going.

    Then, there is Chuikov, Bradley, Kesselring, Von Manstein, Westmoreland who would throw men into meatgrinders just to halt the enemy.

    Momentum, son, is the ability to move forward despite the obstacles being thrown at you be it enemy fortifications or natural barriers.

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