Which is the best tank?

**TopHatter** · 25 Jan 04,, 02:42

Well said Sparky
OK, yes the M1 has thus far faced only 20 year old export-model T-72's crewed by tankers with shoddy training compared to the United States, Great Britain etc.
But the M1's have seen some hard use in a combat environment, more so than any other tank, including the Challenger II (a favorite of mine by the way).
Also, how much combat has the Leopard 2 seen? I'll be the first to say it's a fine tank, but has it gotten the mud of a battlefield splashed on it, so to speak?

**bigross86** · 25 Jan 04,, 06:24

Again, what about the Merkava? The Merk I, II and III have all seen battle time.

**TopHatter** · 25 Jan 04,, 20:00

bigross has a good point. The Israelis probably have more modern (post-WWII) armored combat experience than anyone else.
I wonder how they would fare at the NTC?

**Officer of Engineers** · 25 Jan 04,, 20:11

The IsDF lost alot of combat power during the Intifada. Training and doctrinal developement gave way to actual work needing to be done to quell the uprising. Reservists who normally spend their time training was called up and training and money had to give way to doing actual patrols.

Also, none of their battles would stand up in comparison to the meat grinders of WWII. While not discounting their worth, they do not have the experience of fighting a truly competent and effective enemy like the Wehrmacht in Oratona or Berlin.

This is reflective of their MOUT doctrine of bringing tanks without inf support into the cities. I really doubt the IsDF would survive an Oratona.

**bigross86** · 26 Jan 04,, 08:48

What about 1973? That was all tanks. And Avigdor Kahalani holding back the whole Syrian Army with three tanks, scoring almost 200 kills?

**tomas** · 26 Jan 04,, 12:12

how'd they do that better training, better tanks or better tank rounds?

**bigross86** · 26 Jan 04,, 13:33

A number of factors, including but not limited to: Syrian stupidity and fear, Israeli training, and the Hand of God

**Officer of Engineers** · 26 Jan 04,, 14:27

Originally posted by bigross86
What about 1973? That was all tanks. And Avigdor Kahalani holding back the whole Syrian Army with three tanks, scoring almost 200 kills?

Originally posted by bigross86
A number of factors, including but not limited to: Syrian stupidity and fear, Israeli training, and the Hand of God

I believe you answered your own question.. The Israelis never fought an adaptive enemy. It is not a fair comparison to those armies that had.

In the case of the Wehrmacht, they took the lessons the enemy inflicted upon them and then outmaster the master. Chuikov was given the title of the father of MOUT (Military Operations in an Urban Terrain) development. However, he was surely outclassed by Kesselring.

To give you an example, the Wehrmacht would hold a building, force the enemy to take the building, then blow up the building, hopefully to land on the road or better yet, a road with alot of troops and tanks, and then come again to take over the building ruins, forcing the enemy to retake it, using foot infantry because no tank was going to get by the rubble.

The allied answer was simply to blow up the building in the first place, hopefully away from the road and then slug it out with superior numbers and fire.

Where in all of the IsDF history did they face that kind of enemy?

**tomas** · 27 Jan 04,, 12:37

that pretty much sums it up to win u need better everything.

:D :D :sniper :taynk

**Officer of Engineers** · 27 Jan 04,, 17:17

No, to win, you need to gain momentum and keep it.

**tomas** · 28 Jan 04,, 11:05

even if your in the middle of a convoy? speeding up and crashing into a mate tank not a good idea. lol
:D :D :sniper :taynk :taynk :taynk

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Jan 04,, 14:40

If you want to get cute, fine but don't try to ridicule what you don't understand.

**tomas** · 28 Jan 04,, 14:47

hey i do understand momentum=life it like in a plane alt=life

**Blademaster** · 28 Jan 04,, 18:07

Tomas, your attempts at humor is not humoring anybody. I would suggest that you take a humor class before posting any attempt to humor.

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Jan 04,, 19:14

Originally posted by tomas
hey i do understand momentum=life it like in a plane alt=life

No. You don't understand.

Anyone who has ever studied Patton, Zuhkov, Montgomery, Napolean, Frederick knows how they burn men and material just to keep their momentum going.

Then, there is Chuikov, Bradley, Kesselring, Von Manstein, Westmoreland who would throw men into meatgrinders just to halt the enemy.

Momentum, son, is the ability to move forward despite the obstacles being thrown at you be it enemy fortifications or natural barriers.