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Thread: Hypothetical Sino-Russian War

  1. #136
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    Only USA is stronger than Russia at the moment , and russians are modernizing fast and each year they spend more for defence and each year pilots get more hours , in 10-30 years Russia will be very very powerfull , but still the statement that China could invade Russia is pure stupidity , nobody can invade Russia not even USA in a conventional war , and same way that no country can invade USA or such , its very hard to invade a country especialy so powerfull military as Russia , and Feanor i was wondering why you claim China can invade Russia and why ur stating Russia is weak because thats such a funny joke that i cant stop laughing Napoleon thought the same way , Hitler thought the same way , Chingis-han thought the same way yet they got defeated by such a "weak" country as Russia

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiRepower View Post
    Only USA is stronger than Russia at the moment , and russians are modernizing fast and each year they spend more for defence and each year pilots get more hours , in 10-30 years Russia will be very very powerfull , but still the statement that China could invade Russia is pure stupidity , nobody can invade Russia not even USA in a conventional war , and same way that no country can invade USA or such , its very hard to invade a country especialy so powerfull military as Russia , and Feanor i was wondering why you claim China can invade Russia and why ur stating Russia is weak because thats such a funny joke that i cant stop laughing Napoleon thought the same way , Hitler thought the same way , Chingis-han thought the same way yet they got defeated by such a "weak" country as Russia
    How on earth was Gengis-Khan defeated by Russians?
    If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

    Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    Hi Feanor, in my view things are much more complicated... these gangs are not monolite.... in fact there are strong fractions inside.

    For example there are two sides inside Putins people - oil&gas, KGB1, KGB2/Rosboronexport, Old family suvivors....

    I am less aware of how Bush's gang is split but from what I read it is not a monolite as well.

    Hence, there are different interests of the different fraction of the gang at a same time. Oil&gas which is being nationalized is just part of the story....
    You are absolutely correct. This thread is not about politicsz so I didn't want to get into the details. Just fyi atm the gas beat the oil.

    The Russian military is not really getting stronger at the moment. Just keep in mind the horrible lack of funding, and complete lack of new equipment.

    EDIT Genghis Khan was not defeated by the Russians. Much later, the Golden Horde was allegedly defeated by Russian troops in the battle fo Kulikovo field. This marked the end of Mongolian rule in ancient Rus.
    Last edited by Feanor; 21 Jun 07, at 02:01.

  4. #139
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    so we pretty much all agree that a war with china is very unlikely, and if occured Russia would most likely win......?
    die, no0b

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedArmySurplus View Post
    so we pretty much all agree that a war with china is very unlikely, and if occured Russia would most likely win......?

    No, the war has already been fought China won and with in a hundred years you'll see an offical transfer of sovergienty, probably after a short shooting war that will confirm the relaity on the ground- Siberia is going Chinese. A 160 million and shrinking population backed by less than a trillion dollar economy cannot withstand 1.6 billion and growing population supported by a 2.5 trillion dollar economy oiver the long term. Russia's current edge is evaporating as the Chinese narrow the gap. China will pass Russia long before she catches America. If China keeps the same level of miltiary spending in relation to it GDP Russia will soon be trying to match two miltiaries that together total over 1 trillion in defense spending.

    If the war happened today Russia might win depending on the scale. If it is jsut a local conflict my bets on China, if its a major war Russia has the edge. That will begin to shift within a decade and within 20years China will have the egde, within 50 years it won't even be a contest.

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    Unless the Chinese collossues legs collapse under it's own weight. If the Chinese don't do something, they'll soon have a demographic crises on their hands. Also mayn economists view China as a bubble. In that situation when the bubble bursts Chinese influence won't be enough to take over Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Unless the Chinese collossues legs collapse under it's own weight. If the Chinese don't do something, they'll soon have a demographic crises on their hands. Also mayn economists view China as a bubble. In that situation when the bubble bursts Chinese influence won't be enough to take over Siberia.
    I love the un-educated, they make me feel smarter than I really am. Feanor hisotrically speaking what the best way to get rid of excess males?











































    marry them to your neighbors women after an invasion.

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    Lol perhaps. That wasnt the demographic crises i was referring to but ok. Keep in mind the one child policy means son china will have mroe old people then young people, this will place huge burdens on it's social welfare system, which is rather advanced because China still pretends to be Communist. This could cause several things. China could go all-out capitalist and possibly collapse from internal pressures, like Tibet independence movements, as well as Hong Kong, which many hope to see as a vehicle of democracy in China. It could simply collapse under the weight of trying to support that aging population. Or it might just make it and pull out of teh cirses, coming back stronger then ever. If that's the case . . . we're ****ed.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    The Russian military is not really getting stronger at the moment. Just keep in mind the horrible lack of funding, and complete lack of new equipment.
    well it all depends to the point of reference, situation is far better than it was in mid 1990-es.... but well below the 1980-es when 1/3 of GDP was wasted on weapons and millitary

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    EDIT Genghis Khan was not defeated by the Russians. Much later, the Golden Horde was allegedly defeated by Russian troops in the battle fo Kulikovo field. This marked the end of Mongolian rule in ancient Rus.
    Well, I don't take the last point. Kulikovo field, did not mark anything in fact - Golden Horde burned Moscow right after it and nominally hold power for another 100 years. Dmintry Donskoi preferred to escape then fight in that time... Nominally because it was destroyed as a state by Timur-i-Leng (the crippled) who defeated the burner of Moscow the Tokhtamysh of the Orda..... actually Timur-i-Leng made another favor to Christian world he defeated Turks who were then expanding rapidly through balkans...

    This is about Donskoi pledging loyalty to Golden Hord after Kulikovo

    The defeated Mamai was presently dethroned by a rival Mongol general, Tokhtamysh. That khan reasserted Mongol rule over parts of what now is Russia and overran Moscow for Dmitri's resistance to Mamai. Dmitri, however, pledged his loyalty to Tokhtamysh and to the Golden Horde and was reinstated as Mongol principal tax collector and Grand Duke of Vladimir. Upon his death in 1389, Dmitri was the first Grand Duke to bequeath his titles to his son Vasili without consulting the Khan
    Actually wiki was quite qualified in their discription

    Mamai, a Tatar general who did not formally hold the throne, attempted to reassert Tatar authority over Russia. His army was defeated by Dmitri Donskoi at the Battle of Kulikovo in his second consecutive victory over the Tatars. Mamai soon fell from power, and in 1378, Tokhtamysh, a descendant of Orda Khan and ruler of the White Horde, invaded and annexed the territory of the Blue Horde, briefly reestablishing the Golden Horde as a dominant regional power.

    After Mamai's defeat, Tokhtamysh tried to restore the dominance of Golden Horde over Russia attacking Russian lands in 1382. He besieged Moscow on August 23, but Muscovites beat off his storm, using firearms for the first time in Russian history.[11] On August 26, two sons of Tokhtamysh's supporter Dmitry of Suzdal, dukes of Suzdal and Nizhny Novgorod Vasily and Semyon, who were present in Tokhtamysh's forces, persuaded Muscovites to open city gates, promising, that forces would not harm the city in this case.[12] This allowed Tokhtamysh's troops to burst in and destroy Moscow, killing 24,000 people.[13]

    Disintegration and fall
    The domains of the Golden Horde in 1389 before the Tokhtamysh-Timur war, with modern international boundaries in light brown. The Principality of Moscow is shown as a dependency, in light yellow.A fatal blow to the Horde was dealt by Tamerlane, who annihilated Tokhtamysh's army, destroyed his capital, looted the Crimean trade centers, and deported the most skillful craftsmen to his own capital in Samarkand.
    In the first decades of the 15th century, the power was wielded by Edigu, a vizier who routed Vytautas of Lithuania in the great Battle of the Vorskla River and established the Nogai Horde as his personal demesne.

    In the 1440s, the Horde was again wracked by civil war. This time it broke up into eight separate Khanates: Siberia Khanate, Qasim Khanate, Khanate of Kazan, Khanate of Astrakhan, Kazakh Khanate, Uzbek Khanate, and Khanate of Crimea all seceding from the last remnant of the Golden Horde - the Great or Big Horde.

    None of these new Khanates was stronger than Muscovite Russia, which finally broke free of Tatar control by 1480. Each Khanate was eventually annexed by it, starting with Kazan and Astrakhan in the 1550s. By the end of the century the Siberia Khanate was also part of Russia, and descendants of its ruling khans entered Russian service.

  10. #145
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    Russia and China haven't defeated the Mongols. They survived them.
    But guys... do you think the details of Russian history are interesting for somebody here? Except of us, certainly?

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    China could go all-out capitalist and possibly collapse from internal pressures, like Tibet independence movements, as well as Hong Kong, which many hope to see as a vehicle of democracy in China.
    que?

    sir, elaborate plz.

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    Well many see the collapse of teh Soviet Union as a result of the "glasnost'" and "perestroika" policies that marked the transition to an open market. China is underoing the same kind of a process, except much slower, and much mroe controlled. If the individual economic interests of powerful regional leaders in China spin out of control, then the PRC of today could very well collapse the way the USSR did in 91.

    Also hong kong is a country within a country. If it does push forward democratic reforms in the rest of China then these democratic reforms could lead all tipes of minority nationalities to demand independence. Examples of this include the Mongolians in Inner Mongolia, the Manchu's in Manchuria, possibly Tibet natives.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    Russia and China haven't defeated the Mongols. They survived them.
    But guys... do you think the details of Russian history are interesting for somebody here? Except of us, certainly?
    Yep! Russia survived and end up swallowing them... all!!! Like Punic wars have fostered victorious Roman army, the interaction with mongols have somehow enforced Russia and turned it into a formidable power.... While fighting mongols Russia turned from a scattered number of Russian small cities/states into a monolite force united by Moscow state. In my view, existence of Mongols clearly helped to get united

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiRepower View Post
    Only USA is stronger than Russia at the moment , and russians are modernizing fast and each year they spend more for defence and each year pilots get more hours , in 10-30 years Russia will be very very powerfull , but still the statement that China could invade Russia is pure stupidity , nobody can invade Russia not even USA in a conventional war , and same way that no country can invade USA or such , its very hard to invade a country especialy so powerfull military as Russia , and Feanor i was wondering why you claim China can invade Russia and why ur stating Russia is weak because thats such a funny joke that i cant stop laughing Napoleon thought the same way , Hitler thought the same way , Chingis-han thought the same way yet they got defeated by such a "weak" country as Russia
    In what points is U.S. stronger than Russia?

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMUSTLEARN View Post
    In what points is U.S. stronger than Russia?
    Stealth aircraft, supercarriers (however they will not live THAT long), and especially general logistics.

    I have not mentioned Abrams and the like. Say what you want to say, gentlemen, but they will not survive Siberia.

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