Thread: M1A2 vs Challenger 2 (intelligent debate)

Originally Posted by zraver

Your off your rocker

1- The Abrams has a manual travese and master-blaster. Thus even if the tank is a completely mobility kill and has zero power the gunner can via the aux daysight still traverse and fire.

2- The Leo and Leclerc do not use Chobbam, never have never will. They do not use ceramics at all in fact. But a mixture of spaced armor and appligue backed in certai areas by ERA.

3- they do not sue the same fire control system. 120mm smmothbore and 120mm rifled have much different charateristics. What they (Chally/Abrams) do have is the same company making the FCS.

4- the gun on the Leclerc is a French design in 53 caliber. The Rheinmetall gun comes in either 44 or 55. The British gun is likewise not German either the L11A5 or the newer longer L30.

5- the US did not place an emphasis on any one factor but instead demanded equal parts mobility/protection/firepower*. They achieve this war winning combo by going outside the box and using the new Chobbham Armor to give world class protection while using a turbine to provide mobility. The sacrafice was range.

6- Two wars alsting 5 years, and 25 years of NTC rotatiosna dn Kuwaiti deployments so far and people still think the Abrams has issues in the desert. Just how many drives across desert doe sit take to kill that urban legend? As long as you do your daily maintece the Abrams does fine in almsot any enviroment. Becuase the US physically has every type of climate in the world our equipment is multi-enviroment capable.

7- The Smoke grenades on the Leo are german mortar style, not British.

8- Abrams has AC, APU, and NBC overpressure.

9- Abrans uses a pnuematic-torsion bar system making it a very stable gun platform from 0-45kph. Only 3 tanks in the world even make claims or demonstrate a higher ability. SK-2, Arjun, Leclerc.

10- The effective thermal signature on the abrams is not nearly as great as some people think, or nealry as important. The Turbine has much less radiated heat venting most out the rear. Deisels with large amounts of radiated heat warm up the entire rear of the tank. No tank is IR freindly, metal heats and cools differently form good old fashioned dirt and excpet for two breif periods every 24 hours when the tank matches the surronding terrian either as it cools or heats all tanks stand out like sore thumbs on a decent thermal viewer.

11- The Challenger CLIP (Challenger Leathaility Improvement Program) is not much different than the new TUSK upgrades being put on the Abrams. They both add ERA to weak spots, SLAT armor to the rear sides and rear and upgrade the cermaics to the 2nd generation level. However the Abrams has superior thermal systems, a better battle management and vastly superior frontal armor on a level plane via DU rods.

12- ad finally its not a gas turbine (gasoline) but a mutli-fuel turbine.

If I had to go into combat in one I'd pick the Abrams its the beast I know. However familarity aside it has several distinct advantages over the Chally that my training can make use of. I'd probalby get slaughtered in a Chally using Abrams tactics, and vice versa. The emphaiss in the Abrams is much more offnesive move and shoot and fight from concealment(smoke/night/inclement weather) than the very defensive minded Challenger where fighting from cover and all around protection took precedence.

Thanks for the slagging, no need to make it personal. From your comments it looks like Challenger 2 and the Abrams are now a very similar beast, and as you say at the end "If I had to go into combat in one" you would pick the Abrams it's the beast you know. Now if I were to go into combat, I would definately choose the Challenger 2, the beast I know very well, and have fought successfully with it in combat, and the quote about Challenger being defensive is a little untrue, it depends on the situation at the time. If you are advancing to contact you would use defensive techniques, the same as the US Army does i.e. Two-Up, Snake Patrol (for roads) etc. Challenger 2 is pretty awesome in the assualt. I have also had the experience of Exercising on the M1 in Grafenvehr in Germany for two weeks, I found it a rather dull experience. Again thanks for your comments.