Hongkongfuey

See above. I've stated several times that i think Professor Bose's reporting is fair and neutral.

Pedantic point. It's pretty obvious

Quantity is not equal to standard or quality of education.


Pedantic point again. East and West Bengalis will be classed as Bengalis to some and not to others.

Right

Hongkongfuey

Alright, follow it through. West wing Pakistan = 6 times size of East Wing Pakistan. West Wing of Pakistan needs 6 times as many soldiers as east wing to defend it.

Total size of Pakistan Army pre-1971 = 400,000.

Ideally, you'd need 57,000 troops in East Pakistan to defend it and 6 X 57,000 = 342,000 troops in West Pakistan to defend its territory equally. (Total = 342,000 + 57,000 = 399,000 soldiers).

East Pakistan required 57,000 troops. It had over 20,000 East Pakistani troops, and 40,000 troops were sent at the initial stage of the war. The density of troops was the same all over West and East Pakistan, which sounds about right. The desertions of the East Pakistanis required another 20,000 to arrive to make up for the numbers, and 30,000 more arrived. Troops wise the soldiers of Pakistan were pretty evenly spread out.

dabrownguy

The Bengalis say they are were being terrorized. Pictures proved this. The Pakistani word won't be good enough to change the view that has been made already.

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Ray

My dear Hongkong,


1. If defence of a country went by population, then I presume China would have conquered the world.


2. If the defence of a country was dependent only on size, then I am afraid Pakistan would have been swamped long back.

Do bone up how wars are conceived, planned and fought.

A little learning is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is just as bad. Your Ignorance in military matters does cramp discusssion. Why assume that in military matters you are wise, when actually you are otherwise!

Further, in context with your use of the word "pedantic" one is lead to believe that the addage that 'greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about' is proved.

Generically, true.

However, since you claim to be cat's whiskers on the subject with the help of your friend Samila Bose this statement does indicate the falsehood intrinsically cranked in to reject the truth. Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form or another.

If you wish to discuss a subject, then bone up on it.The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance.

I am constrained to indicate that a discussion is but an exchange of knowledge. an false argument for the heck of it is but a display of arrogant ignorance."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bengalis being the same is like stating that Bush is Blair! As a Pakistani or of Pakistani origin, it is ludicrous that you do not understand the difference in culture and other aspects between a West Bengali and a East Bengali! It also is a clear indication why the East Paksitanis (East Bengalis) thought Paskistan was a huge joke since they (West P) didn't even know they (East P) exist or what they were!

I do hope you know the difference between a Pathan and a West Punjabi or a Baloch or a Mohajir. Learn abut your country and be sensitive to these issues before you find Pakistan going the Bangaldesh way!

Hongkongfuey

Yes, you're of course right ray. But if West Pakistan had sent over too many troops to East Pakistan then West Pakistan would have been vulnerable.

You say that if it were just troops numbers that kept invaders out then Pakistan would have been swamped a long time ago. Well, Kuwait could be overrun anytime by most of the surrounding countries. Why isnt it?

Hongkongfuey

Noone is really that too bothered what the other person thinks. There's a lack of evidence so people will think whatever they want to. The pictures, though, dont prove much. In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis. These were classed as "Urdu speakers" and also as non-Bengalis, since they'd moved over from India during partition in 1947. This group sided with West Pakistan during 1971 and led to civilian on civilian killings, nothing to do with the West Pakistan Army who were busy fighting the Mukti Bahini while hopelessly under equipped and understaffed.

Indians like to quote Anthony Mascaranhas here, so his book said this of what the Bengali civilian population had done to the Biharis (non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers) to create bodies like the ones shown. His figures are way exagerrated though, who knows what else, but it's someone you like to quote as gospel.

Ray

How ridiculous can you be?!

Biharis are Bengalis?

Like Balochis are Punjabis!!!!

It indicates:

1 You are immensely clueless and you refuse to research and not expose your total ignorance.

Biharis are from Bihar! The Biharis of East Pakistan are Biharis who were Moslems and who moved to EAst Pakistan. They are culturally totally different from Bengalis apart from food habits and traditions! Heaven help us! This discussion is getting really like a primary school!

2. It also indicates the total indiffernce to even know about the Moslem Bengalis. Yet, being in the forefront to accuse others of waging war on Pakistan, which in any case, if this was the attitude of total indifference to them, doesn't speak much of Pakistan and the Westerners of that country.

If this attitude continues, then surely Bangladesh will be the way the remainder Provinces go!

What arrogance to want to be a Nation, but not care to know a damn about the peoples who make that Nation!!!!

Merely building up a canard to cover the rape and looting by the Pakistani Army and the Bihari razaakars!

Ray

Quietly bolted to Paksitan since they were not repatriated as per the Agreement!

Hongkongfuey

Look idiot. Read my other posts on other threads as well. I said there were two groups in the Bengali POPULATION. I class Biharis as non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers, like most people. That makes them non-Bengali, but living in Bangladesh!!

Yes, yes, you can go on about your fictitious dreaming of Pakistani Army raping Bengalis that has been shown to be pretty unlikely, as in here http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

but you dont like answering about the facts from neutral well reputed human rights groups of systematic rape and killings of Kashmiris by the Indian Army that's going on as we speak.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/docu...2569A500714D22

Gabru47

Why are you saying no rapes occured? Bose's report says that in the specific case studies she conducted, there was no evidence of rape. She even goes on to say that this can't be extended to represent the experience of all Bangladeshis in 1971. She admits that her paper shouldn't be taken as an authority on the matter of rapes commited in Bangladesh in 1971. What I would like to know is how many case studies she conducted. Also why was she invited to a university in the USA to write a paper which was to be released on the date that the USA government declassified documents that talked of it's involvment in the 1971 genocide.

667medic

Ray was an officer in the army and so is it too difficult for you give some respect even if he doesn't agree with your POV....

Ray

My good man Hongkong Charlie,

Do you really expect me to trace your meanderings, mumblings and amnesia infected posts all over WAB and that too where one post does not agree with another? Sir, Janus could not have done a better job than you!

If you were not posting for the sake of posting and instead had the intellectual courage to have a single thought process, one could have undertaken a befittling discussion.

However, you remain fickle as the wind and weasel mouthed to suit the flavour of the moment!

You call me an idiot and clueless. However, I shall not resort to your brilliance in slum and gutter snipe vocabulary. It is entirely your prorigative to show your upbringing. Now , who could deny you that? This is not Pakistan that I can banish you to Saudi Arabia or threaten to jail you if you should step within the confines I command.

I am delighted to learn that you class Biharis as non Bengalis and yet you do write in Post # 81:

Indeed I am an idiot because I do not understand that:

1. A group of Bengalis are also Biharis. (My understanding, as is the understand of the educated world, is that Bengalis and Biharis are two different communities!)

2. That one can write that:

"In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis.[/b]

and

then in the near next post state "I said there were two groups in the Bengali POPULATION. I class Biharis as non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers, like most people. That makes them non-Bengali, but living in Bangladesh!!"

Thus, here you state that there is a group of Bengalis who are known as Bihari and also that Biharis are non Bengalis!

In other words, the confusion of your thoughts and knowledge show and the deviousness wilyness is loud as an avalanche. Two groups of Bengalis and one of them is Bihari!!!! Like, there are two groups of Punajbis and one of them is Balochi! You seem to have an overload of balderdash and tripe that you wish to jettison on us.

Obviously, with such confusion raging in your enlightened mind, Sam Bose is your icon of intelligence and knowledge.

You do prove the point that Two things are infinite: the universe and your stupidity and abject ignorance; and I'm not sure about the universe.

It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite.

Go ahead, say something quite opposite to what you have been saying so far.

Ray

Medic,

Thanks.

I don't really want any favours and that too from those who cannot undertake a discussion without losing their cool and in the bargain posting totally wierd stuff that baffles and bewilders as to what education was imposed on them!

Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.

Hongkongfuey

Duh, noone's saying no rapes occurred! You dont get the essence of the report. It's been done SYSTEMATICALLY. That's to say she's not taken a particular incident and said women were herded off into dark basements by Pakistani soldiers and raped 80 times a night like your feminist novelist Brownmiller says, but that she's taken a sample of people that is significant, asked them about a set of similar events, and compared them to previous testimony. For example, previously it was reported that killings had taken place and this was associated with a report of rape. However, in Bose's research she found that people who saw and witnessed killing did not now testify to seeing rape. This could be for a number of reasons including that it was fictitiously reported in the initial reports, as there were no medical facilitities at the time to carry out proper investigations of such crimes. However, to say there were no rapes is just ridiculous. Even in normal "peaceful" civilian societies rapes occur, and I would find it odd if rapes had not occurred at the time. The only thing I dont believe are the figures.

She has not extrapolated the figures, and wisely so, but she's said that the figures are significant. That means that her results from her case studies dont match up to what is reported - A bit like Archie Blood's letters and case in the US senate which he said later was actually....not quite true.

Hongkongfuey

I dont care what he was. I dont share your backward mentality.