PTSD-induced depression -- or just another political posture?

**Crocodylus** · 11 Jan 10, 20:40

Original Article: APNewsBreak: Increase in suicide rate of vets - Yahoo! News
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APNewsBreak: Increase in suicide rate of vets

By KIMBERLY HEFLING, Associated Press Writer Kimberly Hefling, Associated Press Writer
2 hrs 20 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The suicide rate among 18- to 29-year-old men who've left the military has gone up significantly, the government said Monday.

The rate for these veterans went up 26 percent from 2005 to 2007, according to preliminary data from the Veterans Affairs Department. It's assumed that most of the veterans in this age group served in Iraq or Afghanistan.

If there is a bright spot in the data, it's that in 2007 veterans in the group who used VA health care were less likely to commit suicide than those who did not. That's a change from 2005.

The military in recent years has struggled as well with an increase in suicides, with the Army seeing a record number last year. While the military frequently releases such data, it has been more difficult to track suicide information on veterans once they've left active duty.

The VA calculated the numbers using Centers for Disease Control and Prevention numbers from 16 states. In 2005, the rate per 100,000 veterans among men ages 18-29 was 44.99, compared with 56.77 in 2007, the VA said. It did not release data for other population groups.

The VA and the military have sought to more aggressively tackle the problem in recent years with measures ranging from a suicide hot line to educational campaigns.

At a conference on Monday in Washington dedicated to addressing the issue, VA Secretary Eric Shinseki said his agency needs to do a better job understanding what led to each suicide. He said he'd also like to see more stringent protocol put into place at VA facilities about how to handle a potentially suicide veteran, similar to what's done with someone who's having a heart attack.

He noted that of the 30,000 suicides each year in America, about 20 percent are committed by veterans.

"Why do we know so much about suicides but still know so little about how to prevent them?" Shinseki said. "Simple question but we continue to be challenged."

**gunnut** · 11 Jan 10, 22:02

At least they didn't get pre-post traumatic stress disorder. Or else they might go on a shooting rampage...

**Capsoda** · 26 Jan 10, 06:48

Vets in the VA system don't commit suicide because they never get done with the paper work. Plus everyone in the system looks worse than they do.

The government still doesn't teach the "Splatter Effect". Human beings don't just splatter and then disappear like on TV or video games. Humans beings make a lot of noise and when they splatter it gets on you and is warm and sticky. Sometimes they just lay out there and call out to you and ask for mom, help or Jesus. You know....things that fail to go away when the game is all over and the TV is off.

They used to show us all that holocaust stuff and films with mutilated bodies that the enemy made. Didn't work that well but at least they tried.

**Officer of Engineers** · 26 Jan 10, 06:51

Originally Posted by Capsoda

Plus everyone in the system looks worse than they do.

We have a vet on this board who went through it and was only diagnosed because his superiors paid attention.

**tankie** · 26 Jan 10, 14:16

I have been diagnosed with PTSD , and its no fun .I was first diagnosed with clinical depression years ago but didnt know why , after some probing by the docs the answers came out .

**Capsoda** · 26 Jan 10, 17:09

I was sent to a psyc nurse who ask the wife one question and diagnosed me on her answer. The second question she asked the wife confirmed the first. It didn't help to give it a name but she helped me learn to keep it under control.

When my nephew joined I spent a couple of hours explaining to him how to stay alive. When he came back the first time they put him in a rest camp for 3 months and worked him down. He was on the TV a lot while in Iraq and the last time was because his squad was wiped out with 3 taken prisoner near the Euphrates, The rest of his platoon when out to get them back and they too were ambushed and wiped out. My nephew and a buddy had been sent to the rear for a detail for two weeks and got back the afternoon of the indecent. There were two newbees left and they were crying to the TV crews. My nephew realized that in one day he had become the "Old Man" and put a stop to the interviews. I thought sure he was fried but he came through it. Someone told him that you have to forget you ever knew the ones who didn't make it. I guess they saw that in some Hollywood war movie. I explained to him his buddies will never leave him alone unless he remembers them to others. Not the bad ending to their life but all the goofy shit they had fun doing. Then and only then will they let you sleep.

He did two in Iraq and will soon be in Afghanistan. Little SOB is tougher than I ever though he would be. While he was in training he called me and ask what part of "Basic Training" I liked best. I told him "Getting The F$$K Out Of Basic Training". Makes ya wonder just what the hell they were teaching them????

**Blue** · 26 Jan 10, 17:32

Originally Posted by tankie

I have been diagnosed with PTSD , and its no fun .I was first diagnosed with clinical depression years ago but didnt know why , after some probing by the docs the answers came out .

Bout the same here. I listened to the docs for awhile but still chose my own course of therapy when thiers didn't help any.

I found my best therapy to be a day of fishing or motorcycle riding. Plenty of sunshine was the one thing they said would help and did. I refused any drugs, figured that was the last thing I needed.

**Capsoda** · 26 Jan 10, 19:04

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Bout the same here. I listened to the docs for awhile but still chose my own course of therapy when thiers didn't help any.

I found my best therapy to be a day of fishing or motorcycle riding. Plenty of sunshine was the one thing they said would help and did. I refused any drugs, figured that was the last thing I needed.

They put me through some drugs but found out that if they give me something for the pain in my back and legs I was much more sedate. Booze makes it worse as does working in a place you don't like but telling all the corny, funny stories helps me best. Got the greatest gal in the universe. When she recognizes the symptoms she asks me about this skirmish or that. It took me a while to catch on and sometimes she will just say go take a pill.

)

I think the phyc drugs just do more harm. I work on my old cars (torn rotator cuff has ended that for a while) or build a model.

**astralis** · 26 Jan 10, 19:50

eric,

Bout the same here. I listened to the docs for awhile but still chose my own course of therapy when thiers didn't help any.

have you found that to give you long-lasting peace? from my own experiences with vets, some find that the best method, but for others whom was particularly hard-hit by the grinder, it just seems to distract them until the nightmares come again...:(

**Blue** · 26 Jan 10, 21:02

Originally Posted by astralis

have you found that to give you long-lasting peace?

I don't think there will ever be peace. Its been 22 years now.

from my own experiences with vets, some find that the best method, but for others whom was particularly hard-hit by the grinder, it just seems to distract them until the nightmares come again...:(

The human mind can only take so much. I got out because I had seen enough and it didn't take long. I could also see the writing on the wall and I knew what was coming and I could not see me in that picture. I went to Egypt once for a short time. Decided right there that I never wanted to return to the ME(north africa, I know, its all the same to me).

My dad has a cousin that was a tunnel rat in nam. He has a steel plate in his head, is riddled with health problems related to Agent Orange, and if he wasn't the toughest, meanest SOB I know, he would propbably be dead by now. Instead he has become a sucessful businessman in a field he loved. He owns a western store and sells tack and spends lots of time at rodeos and such. He used to be hard to be around 30 years ago when he was driving a truck trying to save enough money to get started in that. He has been in the shittiest of worlds and came out strong. He has some buddies that didn't, some that managed for a while, some seem like it never happened. I think its a coin toss as to who you are going to end up as.

I had some buddies that flat don't remember anything, good or bad. I have some that cry about it, some are drunks, some are divorced and a couple committed suicide. A couple are in prison IIRC. One tried to rob a bank and the other a child molester.

I wanted to fight when I got out. I wanted to beat the shit out of a lot of people. I channeled that and became a Muay Thai fighter. Then I wasn't a thug, I was an athlete. A legal way to work out the anger. Win or lose, it was my first outlet for some serious rage. I did not drink or smoke but the fighting was getting hard on me by age 26. I stayed fit and healthy till about 35 and then I started to drink, smoke and get fat. Nightmares started in on me about that time and I had started hanging around with other vets. Before then, I didn't have anything to do with the military. I wouldn't even admit to serving a lot of times and NEVER talked about it. I threw away most everything like unit patches, uniforms, medals, burned pictures and tried to just get away from everything. I just wanted to be normal.

Then I chatted a few times with some VA head docs and decided I should become a biker, hang out with people who understood me and had the same problems and go fishing. Lots of fishing!!!

I started out with a flyrod and a canoe. My wife would drop me off somewhere and pick me up 20 or 30 miles down river whenever I got there. Those solitary times gave me time to really get my shit together. Those where the best. She was a big help too for understanding. I think my wife has kept me going (safely)for the last 17 years.

I just realised I'm babbling on. To answer the question though. The nightmares never quit I would imagine. If they ever stop, I'll let you know. Every dream I have had for the last 22 years I am wearing green! The only time I really get good sleep is when I've had too much(not enough?) to drink.

The hobbies are a distraction, but they are a welcome one when all you have are distractions. The alternatives haven't appealed to me.............so far anyway.

**Blue** · 26 Jan 10, 21:08

Originally Posted by Capsoda

They put me through some drugs but found out that if they give me something for the pain in my back and legs I was much more sedate.

Homeopathics and acupuncture. You might give it a try. It helped me once.

Booze makes it worse as does working in a place you don't like

Amen to that. I'm not sure what job would make me happy though.

but telling all the corny, funny stories helps me best. Got the greatest gal in the universe. When she recognizes the symptoms she asks me about this skirmish or that. It took me a while to catch on and sometimes she will just say go take a pill.

)

I don't think I would want to know what my life would look like without my wife. We are obviously lucky here!

I think the phyc drugs just do more harm.

With ya there. The guys I know doing the worst are on pills. They think the doctors are gods. Its pathetic and sad and they won't listen to me or any alternative.:(

**Blue** · 26 Jan 10, 21:09

Originally Posted by tankie

I have been diagnosed with PTSD , and its no fun .I was first diagnosed with clinical depression years ago but didnt know why , after some probing by the docs the answers came out .

So what did you do to get through if I may ask?

**Capsoda** · 27 Jan 10, 00:10

Those guys who live on the phyc drugs and worship the VA gods are usually the ones who hid in the bottom of the hole instead of fighting back. They are afraid of sounds and things like that. I know that after what I did and saw nothing scares me. That tends to scare the wife so I try not to do too many laimbrained things.

I never had to much luck with the head headshrinkers because you can't talk to someone who has no idea of what you are going through. The last one I had was a screwed up lady who had a lock fetish. I had three sessions with her and she quit and moved away. I ask my AMVET counselor where she was and he busts out laughing and tells me she quit because of me and he wants to know what I said to her. Hell....I don't have any idea what part of what we talked about caused he to cut and run.

I stay away from them, mind my business, stay busy and try to keep my back and leg pain to a minimum. Course so fishin every now and then don't hurt.

)

Your spouse can be your biggest asset or biggest hindrance. Luckily mine is my best buddy too.

**sappersgt** · 27 Jan 10, 00:21

by 7thsfsniper
I don't think there will ever be peace. Its been 22 years now.

I'm not so sure it's peace, maybe you just become used to it. Used to be two or three times week, then weekly, finally monthly. I did quit sleeping with a gun under my pillow. I moved it to the drawer. I believe that's (some kind of)progress.

I had some buddies that flat don't remember anything, good or bad. I have some that cry about it, some are drunks, some are divorced and a couple committed suicide. A couple are in prison IIRC. One tried to rob a bank and the other a child molester.

Add drug addict and bank robber to that. To be fair there's also lawyer(s), police officers (local and fed), a golf pro, a doctor and wouldn't yo know it, a counselor.

Suicide is common, one question I ask is, "Have you ever had your pistol in your mouth?". Frightening is that most nod or say yes. Most don't pull the trigger but I wonder how many didn't really mean to but just slipped? :(

The only time I really get good sleep is when I've had too much(not enough?) to drink.

Not so much anymore but so true for many years. I finally had to quit drinking. It wasn't making it any better. So now I tell people, "I don't drink. It's not that I don't know how!".

I found that my problems and nightmares paled into insignificance when faced with danger. I took up skydiving, working as a repo agent and bodyguard. Every few years I'd get "the itch" and take a contractor gig in some shitehole country. I found that trying to keep yourself and your men alive and it one piece somehow put everything into "perspective". You know, I WAS better when I came back. So it seemed anyways, maybe not really "better" but I did mange to successfully push my nightmares to the back of my mind. The problem was they eventually always came back and often new contracts brought their own new set of nightmares.

hobbies are a distraction, but they are a welcome one when all you have are distractions.

One thing I did was started playing volleyball. When I'm on the court I can't think about anything but what's happening in front of me. Focusing solely on the flow of play means there is no room for anything else. I call it meditation, whatever it is, it works for me.

**Blue** · 27 Jan 10, 00:38

Originally Posted by sappersgt

I'm not so sure it's peace, maybe you just become used to it. Used to be two or three times week, then weekly, finally monthly. I did quit sleeping with a gun under my pillow. I moved it to the drawer. I believe that's (some kind of)progress.

Mine is always in the drawer. Never could sleep on the lumpy thing.

Add drug addict and bank robber to that. To be fair there's also lawyer(s), police officers (local and fed), a golf pro, a doctor and wouldn't yo know it, a counselor.

Yeah, I didn't mean to short change the success stories. There are far more of us that manage and succeed. Hell, I'm great compared to a lot of my classmates that stayed here at home and smoked dope and got in trouble.

Suicide is common, one question I ask is, "Have you ever had your pistol in your mouth?". Frightening is that most nod or say yes. Most don't pull the trigger but I wonder how many didn't really mean to but just slipped? :(

Embarrased to admit, but I was there once. That was my turnaround point. At least determined to not become a statistic of that sort. That constituted failure IMO and I wasn't accustomed to failure.

Not so much anymore but so true for many years. I finally had to quit drinking. It wasn't making it any better. So now I tell people, "I don't drink. It's not that I don't know how!".

Hasn't done me any good either. Problem is, I really like the taste of beer now. Some whiskey ain't bad now and again either.

I found that my problems and nightmares paled into insignificance when faced with danger. I took up skydiving, working as a repo agent and bodyguard. Every few years I'd get "the itch" and take a contractor gig in some shitehole country. I found that trying to keep yourself and your men alive and it one piece somehow put everything into "perspective". You know, I WAS better when I came back. So it seemed anyways, maybe not really "better" but I did mange to successfully push my nightmares to the back of my mind. The problem was they eventually always came back and often new contracts brought their own new set of nightmares.

I did all the adrenaline junkie things I could find. It just took a toll on the body. Knees where already in trouble from too many bad PLFs.

It worked for awhile. I even tried being a workaholic and that made me so tired I didn't have much for anything else. Made some good money though!

)

One thing I did was started playing volleyball. When I'm on the court I can't think about anything but what's happening in front of me. Focusing solely on the flow of play means there is no room for anything else. I call it meditation, whatever it is, it works for me.[/QUOTE]