PTSD-induced depression -- or just another political posture?

**Maxor** · 03 Feb 10, 03:39

Originally Posted by Aussiegunner

For some people who have disorders like endogenous depression, bipolar disorder and schitzophrenia, going on medication for the rest of their lives might be the only option as these orders are primarily physical, not psychological. If people are going to suggest that people can just will themselves out of those disorders without medication of some sort, then they may as well go over to the Military Aviation Board and say that a Cessna 152 pilot can will his aircraft to Mach 2.

I'm not absolutely certain it'll work but I'm pretty sure that a cessna 152 can reach Mach 2 once. At least one with an oxogen system, climb to max alititude at max cruising speed zoom climb as much as you can. Nose over power dive till your wings and prop sheer off, you may well hit mach 2 some time before impact. I'm not sure that you will get mach 2 but it'll be over the sound barrier. The pilot isn't going to refute the mach to either.

**Triple C** · 03 Feb 10, 09:39

Originally Posted by Bigfella

I was quite prepared to take this stuff for the rest of my life if necessary. After 20+ years in the hole I wasn't much fussed about how I stayed out. As it happened this hadn't proved necessary. The drugs gave me some mental 'breathing space' to change my thought processes & perspectives. After a few years I was able to go off the drugs. Much like a recovering addict, I consider myself a recovering depressive. Churchill's 'black dog' will probably never leave me, but it is under control. I would not hesitaite to go back to medication if I felt the beast approacing too closely, but hopefuly that won't be necessary.

Personally I don't think there is a 'right' way to tackle this. Everyone experiences it differently. If someone came to me & asked my advice I would tell them to start by talking to someone - a professional if necessary - and if that failed continue on with it, but using medication. If one medication didn't work, try another. Try diet change, exercise or any damned thing until they found the single tratment or combination that worked best. It all takes time & the battle is never really over, but it can be made a lot easier.

That is my experience too. I am looking forward to the day I can do without medication, but being sick for a long time does give one some perspective. I have a coterie of acquaintances with bigger problems than I, and sometimes when come to me to talk about their woes, I think about how lucky I am.

**Mihais** · 03 Feb 10, 10:29

Questions for those of you on meds.How often do you go outdoors and what kind of sport do you practice,if any?

**Bigfella** · 03 Feb 10, 10:43

Originally Posted by Triple C

That is my experience too. I am looking forward to the day I can do without medication, but being sick for a long time does give one some perspective. I have a coterie of acquaintances with bigger problems than I, and sometimes when come to me to talk about their woes, I think about how lucky I am.

Stick with it mate.

One of the things that was killing me was simply how long I was depressed - after a while I was no longer able to remember what it was like to be anything but depressed. This was when it got dangerous, because it killed hope that things would get better. The medication gave me hope, and with that I was able to slowly start working out how to change my thought patterns. I hid my condition from friends & family - apparently with remarkable success. I find talking about it helps.

Just take it day by day Triple C. You'll get there. And don't forget - you are never alone.

**Aussiegunner** · 06 Feb 10, 01:31

Originally Posted by Mihais

Questions for those of you on meds.How often do you go outdoors and what kind of sport do you practice,if any?

I've always been physically active. At various times I've done martial arts, tennis, soccer, touch football, weight training, salsa dancing, jogging, water polo, swimming and my army reserve service. It definately improves my mood when I'm down and I recomend it, but it isn't a replacement for medication when you are truly depressed. The big change for me was to get out of doing shiftwork with nursing.

**US_MiltCom** · 12 Feb 10, 03:58

In you gentleman's experience, how universal is PTSD? Have most of the people you served with experienced it? And if so to what degree? I'm extraordinarily curious to see how I cope with the effects of combat, if indeed I see it.

**Bigfella** · 12 Feb 10, 05:59

Originally Posted by US_MiltCom

In you gentleman's experience, how universal is PTSD? Have most of the people you served with experienced it? And if so to what degree? I'm extraordinarily curious to see how I cope with the effects of combat, if indeed I see it.

US_Miltcom,

I'll leave most of this to the experts (not me), but will make one observation - you don't need to see combat to suffer ill effects. My grandfather didn't see a shot fired in anger in WW2 - he was behind the front line. He did, however, see things that haunted him & had negative effects on the rest of his life. Don't know if it was PTSD, but it messed with his head pretty good.

Good luck mate.

**tankie** · 12 Feb 10, 13:07

Originally Posted by US_MiltCom

In you gentleman's experience, how universal is PTSD? Have most of the people you served with experienced it? And if so to what degree? I'm extraordinarily curious to see how I cope with the effects of combat, if indeed I see it.

Its not just military mate , it can happen to cops,doctors,nurses etc etc , everyone is different , each person tries to deal with it in their own way , others like myself are seeking pro help for it , i hope you never have to suffer with it .

**Blue** · 12 Feb 10, 15:08

Originally Posted by US_MiltCom

In you gentleman's experience, how universal is PTSD? Have most of the people you served with experienced it? And if so to what degree? I'm extraordinarily curious to see how I cope with the effects of combat, if indeed I see it.

What you see or do will effect others differently. I assume you are of a younger generation. Something that I have observed is that the younger folks have been raised a bit more desensitized to shocking things in our modern era. Movies, games, social climes all have an effect on how you will deal with these things.

A personal example in my own case is an incident where a couple people had been shot and killed. It was a gruesome scene. My partner and I were both about 19 years old, but I was raised in a Kansas farming community in the 70s and he was from inner city New York, Bronx IIRC. I felt ill and was shocked. He laughed as he joked about how pale I was. He asked in his thick NYC accent, "Whatsa matta? You neva seen a dead body before? I replied, sure, just not with the blood and guts everywhere, hell, I had been to funerals.

Thing is, he was already desensitized to such things and had years already to learn how to cope. Some people get used to it quickly and some never do. Some have bad dreams and some never give it a second thought.

My next door neighbor who passed away a couple years ago was a korean war vet. Fighter pilot who was shot down twice. He had some big scars from his experiences physically but the way he dealt with his mental scars was an seething hatred of Asians. He couldn't watch anything on TV with Asians, he wouldn't even speak to one in public. That was his way of dealing with his pain.

Its really hard to say how you will cope until you have experienced it. I started looking at it this way. If I keep re-living the past it is like a wound you keep ripping the scab off. It will take longer to heal. I just keep trying to let it go and let it stay gone. Besides, in a another 20 years or so, none of it will matter anyway. I honestly believe that time heals all wounds, just some longer that others.

Good luck and keep your head down.

**US_MiltCom** · 12 Feb 10, 18:47

Originally Posted by tankie

Its not just military mate , it can happen to cops,doctors,nurses etc etc , everyone is different , each person tries to deal with it in their own way , others like myself are seeking pro help for it , i hope you never have to suffer with it .

Oh I know. One of my best friends in high school was sexually assaulted and she's never been the same since, she still hasn't been able to get her life together. It's a damn shame, she was one of the smartest and most promising young women in town. I was only asking about the military because that's what I'll be dealing with.

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

What you see or do will effect others differently. I assume you are of a younger generation. Something that I have observed is that the younger folks have been raised a bit more desensitized to shocking things in our modern era. Movies, games, social climes all have an effect on how you will deal with these things.

I've been wondering about this. I mean I would assume you can never truly recreate traumatic experiences, particularly combat. But when the youth of today, myself included, can wake up and kill hundreds of ever increasingly photo-realistic Nazis on their Xbox, and then pop in their SAW DVD and watch graphic dismemberment, it must have SOME desensitizing effect.

**Stan187** · 13 Feb 10, 12:01

Originally Posted by US_MiltCom

I've been wondering about this. I mean I would assume you can never truly recreate traumatic experiences, particularly combat. But when the youth of today, myself included, can wake up and kill hundreds of ever increasingly photo-realistic Nazis on their Xbox, and then pop in their SAW DVD and watch graphic dismemberment, it must have SOME desensitizing effect.

Not sure if I buy that. Such talk is based on the assumption that games have gotten so realistic that people are having trouble making a clear dividing line between reality and virtuality. What sniper mentioned was a guy who had seen dead bodies with guts hanging out before in real life. I don't think the two experiences translate to the same effect.

**Chogy** · 13 Feb 10, 12:09

I have a very, very minor case of what I believe to be PTSD from my four years at the U.S. Air Force Academy. It manifests in the form of horrifying dreams, where I find myself an experienced O-3, with a wife and kids (neither of which is allowed at the Academy), "brought back" to re-do the entire shebang, or perhaps because "they" somehow discovered I hadn't completed all graduation requirements, etc. In typical dream fashion, everything is disorganized, I'm failing, I'm lost, back on the Assault Course, getting reamed by upperclassmen, etc.

They appear about once a week, and are bothersome and quite depressing. I went to an AF Academy Forum, discussed this, and there was a chorus of "me too's". It was so common we created a name for it. PUDS - Post USAFA Dream Syndrome.

It sounds silly, but the service academies are mighty institutions that genuinely mind-f you, and the experience is impossible to leave behind. Obviously NOTHING as bad as combat or death. As Tankie said, PTSD manifests in various forms and intensities.

**tankie** · 13 Feb 10, 19:15

Originally Posted by Chogy

I have a very, very minor case of what I believe to be PTSD from my four years at the U.S. Air Force Academy. It manifests in the form of horrifying dreams, where I find myself an experienced O-3, with a wife and kids (neither of which is allowed at the Academy), "brought back" to re-do the entire shebang, or perhaps because "they" somehow discovered I hadn't completed all graduation requirements, etc. In typical dream fashion, everything is disorganized, I'm failing, I'm lost, back on the Assault Course, getting reamed by upperclassmen, etc.

They appear about once a week, and are bothersome and quite depressing. I went to an AF Academy Forum, discussed this, and there was a chorus of "me too's". It was so common we created a name for it. PUDS - Post USAFA Dream Syndrome.

It sounds silly, but the service academies are mighty institutions that genuinely mind-f you, and the experience is impossible to leave behind. Obviously NOTHING as bad as combat or death. As Tankie said, PTSD manifests in various forms and intensities.

Only last night chogy , i suffered again , dreams vivid ones , only this time i was back in uniform , (denim fatigues) and i was wandering aimlessly about the camp i knew so well in Herford (tank park ) but i recognised no,one at all , they were faces i didnt know , but were 1RTR , i was asking for directions etc etc ???? and if people had seen so n so , only to be told they were dead or they didnt know them , which only added to the confusion and desperation , i then skipped from that to awake , cold sweating thinking my mates had been killed ,its bastard awful . However i know one or two that would look good hanging from a lampost (quote) , strange thing is tho , this time i wasnt haunted by tragic sights , one of the worst which i still see vivid was a VW beetle, drive into the back of a Cent in Germany 1970/71, the driver burned to death , his mother was thrown from the car , split down one side ,they both died ,it affected this 19 year old cent driver who was trying to put the fire out ,only one of many incidents , other incidents were active service , but i cant forget that incident , another which plays on my mind greatly happened in N/I i was a trooper and the brick cmdr at the time was l/Cpl Ken H###s we were called to a shooting of a UDR Sgt , and he was dead ,the brave guys knocked on his door and shot him when he answered ,

but the bastards had kneecapped his 9 year old daughter , who had holes for knees and i swear by everyones gods that little lass was still standing imploring me and others to see to her dad , she collapsed in her mums arms when her mum turned up from work at the same time as the ambulance , she refused help from neighbours and us crying for help for her dad , these are only a couple of incidents which have happened in my experiences ,and it seems like yesterday , others have seen and experienced more than i have and they have my sympathies :(

**US_MiltCom** · 13 Feb 10, 20:51

Originally Posted by Stan187

Not sure if I buy that. Such talk is based on the assumption that games have gotten so realistic that people are having trouble making a clear dividing line between reality and virtuality. What sniper mentioned was a guy who had seen dead bodies with guts hanging out before in real life. I don't think the two experiences translate to the same effect.

Sniper directly mentioned games and movies in his post, that was what I was referencing. I would never claim that these things turn you into a battle hardened soldier, just that they do in fact have some affect. Also, to a six year old playing COD, I would think it IS going to be harder to distinguish between reality and "virtuality". I am in NO way claiming that video games turn kids into serial killers, what I am saying is that I could easily see where they may have some desensitizing effect. But hey, I'm neither a combat vet or a child psychologist.

**Blue** · 14 Feb 10, 02:04

Originally Posted by US_MiltCom

Sniper directly mentioned games and movies in his post, that was what I was referencing. I would never claim that these things turn you into a battle hardened soldier, just that they do in fact have some affect. Also, to a six year old playing COD, I would think it IS going to be harder to distinguish between reality and "virtuality". I am in NO way claiming that video games turn kids into serial killers, what I am saying is that I could easily see where they may have some desensitizing effect. But hey, I'm neither a combat vet or a child psychologist.

You are correct. As a matter of fact, I recall some research that has been done in this area according to a morning show interview a while back on the newest gen of vets.

Here is something I have run across as well.

Many, many studies have shown a definite correlation between the degree of violence in video-game viewing and the degree of aggressive behavior in the viewing children. In his book, Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill (Crown Publishers, New York, 1999) Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, a psychologist at Arkansas State University and past specialist as a "killologist," points out that willingness to kill another person is not a natural behavior, but one that has to be taught by repeated desensitization and exposure to violence. He goes on to reveal that part of teaching soldiers to kill demands a conditioned response so that shooting a gun becomes automatic. According to Colonel Grossman, the Marine Corp uses modified versions of grossly violent video games (like the ones that allegedly motivated the Columbine carnage) to teach recruits how to kill. These are used to develop the "will to kill" by repeatedly rehearsing the act until it feels natural. Obviously, this technology is much more dangerous in the hands of kids than among soldiers and police. Grossman refers to violent video games as "murder simulators."

VIDEO VIOLENCE