Ironduke

Too often, they would find themselves, a single squad, surrounded by a battalion or even brigade-sized NVA unit... and call in an air strike right on top of themselves. That's an example of what they would do. The choppers didn't land to pick them up. They threw out ropes and they'd ride them all the way back to the firebase.

Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd like to get him on the site but he's not very computer literate, pretty much limited to casino games, bejeweled installed from CD.

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The Buck Stops Here

tommyp48

This may start an argument but here goes. A USMC pal told me that the army gave most of their men in Nam the Bronze Star just for being there. He did two combat tours in Nam and said in the marines you had to earn it. Hey....I'm just reporting what I was told. If you are US Army and can refute this please do it for my edification as well. I'd like a clarification.

Shek

I walked uphill to school both ways.

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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

tommyp48

Shek....you'll have to explain. I'm not sure what your reply meant. Thanks...T

THL

You too, huh?

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"To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are."-Sholem Asch

"I always turn to the sports page first, which records people's accomplishments. The front page has nothing but man's failures."-Earl Warren

"I didn't intend for this to take on a political tone. I'm just here for the drugs."-Nancy Reagan, when asked a political question at a "Just Say No" rally

"He no play-a da game, he no make-a da rules."-Earl Butz, on the Pope's attitude toward birth control

tommyp48

Yessir....me too. I hope Shek eventually got to go downhill. ha ha

Shek

Tommy,

I'm sure that there are absolutely cases where awards were inflated. However, I'm afraid that your friends assertion comes off to me as a "walks uphill both ways" claim, i.e., that it was harder in the Marine Corps than the Army to get a BSM, thereby impugning all BSMd awarded to Army personnel. I don't like claims that detract from individuals' accomplishments.

tommyp48

I don't like claims that detract from individuals' accomplishments.

Shek....agreed. Much agreed. Nor do I like awards that are given out like animal crackers whether it's done in combat or the classroom.

Gun Grape

I think there is an unfortunate misunderstanding of what the Bronze star is or isn't.

I'm not trying to cast doubt on any persons award.

The Bronze star, before the reforms after OAF, were the combat zone equals of the Army Achievement and MSM.

The only Bronze Star that denotes heroism in combat is one that has a "V" Device indicating that it was awarded for an act of combat heroism.

And being at an Army base after Desert Storm and watching some of the awards formations I will tell you there was an abuse of the system.

Any time that EVERY E-5 in a Brigade recieves a Army Com and EVERY E-6 recieves a Bronze Star. Something is wrong. It is also known that the Army awarded more medals for the Grenada invasion than there were soldiers in grenada.

Here are some often repeated figures, this time in a Slate report.
Its a long ongoing complaint. Reforms took place in 2000 after congress wanted to know why the AF awarded BSMs to more stateside support personnel during the Yugo bombings than they did to Airmen in the Combat Zone

Gun Grape

Let me add something about those numbers.

One of the reason that I believe that the Army awards more BSMs, and only talking about those without "V", is that there is no unit equiv award. Where the Navy/Marine Corps MUC is the individual equiv of a BSM, the Army awards manual states that the Army MUC is the equiv of the Leigon of Merit. A higher award than the BSM.

So where the M/C could give an exceptional unit a MUC the Army really has no equivilent. SO what do you do? Not recognize the bravery and hard work or award lots of personal awards?

FYI:

Combat related service award Equiv individual award

Presidential Unit CItation (PUC) Service Cross (ie Navy Cross)

Navy Unit Commendation (NUC) Silver Star/ Legion of Merit
Valorous Unit Award (Army) Silver Star

Navy Meritorious Unit Commendation (MUC) Bronze Star
Army Meritorious Unit Commendation Legion of Merit

So a more fair set of numbers would include N/MC numbers for MUCs. I'll bet it looks a little more fair

Shek

GG,

There's no doubt that there are units that don't follow the standard or intent of awards, and the rank example you gave is something that has always PO'd me. I was a BN S-1, and my Commander had a rank rule for PCS awards - E-7 & above got MSMs (by exception ARCOM), E-5/6 got ARCOMs, and E-4 and below got AAMs. I don't have an issue per se with those carrying more responsibility being rewarded with more, but denying E-4s (as an example) who performed far above their rank/required responsibility an ARCOM simply because they were an E-4 never made sense. So, just as this peacetime example existed, I can fully believe your ODS example.

One thing about the Slate example that gets me is that their benchmark is off IMO. Should we measure against KIA? Should the armor company that led the charge on the final Baghdad thunder run not receive any BSMs for his company, not to mention the drive through Iraq? My guess is that he had zero KIA during his OIF time thanks to the Abrams, but his company certainly demonstrated heroism during the thunder runs and in holding the Republican Palace grounds. Or should the platoon or company that prevents extensive strife in Mosul through smart engagement with the locals not receive the BSM (for meritorious achievement)? So, I'm not sure that it portrays an accurate picture of the scope of the award (and I like your linkage to unit awards as another potential cause for diverging #s).

One last thing that is interesting to note is that the BSM was awarded to all CIB and EFMB recipients of WWII. Given the #s of CIBs, EFMBs, and CABs that have been awarded, my guess is that this exceeds the number of BSMs awarded as well.

Gun Grape

The Corps is just as bad. A Bn Cdr gets 6 NAMs per quarter to award. All too many times I have seen a deserving devildog that deserved one have it shot down towards the first part of the quarter because the Cdr wants to hold on to them.

As a former S-1 guy, you know the medals get awarded to the best write up. An E-3 running a Squad for a FTX gets a Letter of Appreciation and a E-5 that had a good looking salad bar the day the CO went to the Chow Hall gets the NAM.

And most awards go to the HQ personnel.

E-5s and below don't get PCS awards. And during my retirement, I'm in the Admin office going over my paperwork along with a 1stSgt that was retiring also. For our retirement awards I (An E-7) get a Navy Com, The First Sgt (E-8) got a Navy Achievement.

Reason? Div Policy. I retired with 21 years in. He only had 20.

Here is a guy that has gone further in the ranks in less time then me. Had been awarded the Navy/Marine Corps medal for saving someones life , An MSM and 3 NavComs.

You would think that when he retired, his 20 yrs of service was worth more than a NAM.

Navy/Marine Corps medal
Between the 2 of us, He deserved the Navy Com way more than I did. What a way to thank a man for 20 yrs of service


[quote]
One thing about the Slate example that gets me is that their benchmark is off IMO. Should we measure against KIA? /QUOTE]

I agree, and was going to mention that. A true benchmark would have looked at "Like" circumstances and the differences between the awards the individuals were put in for.

On the flip side, I looked up the number of DSC/Navy Cross awards

The Army has only awarded 6 DSCs during the GWOT. And one of those was for a Soldier attached to a Marine unit. SO I'm betting the MC put him for that one.

The MC has awarded 17 Navy Crosses to Marines and 1 to a Corpsman serving with a Marine unit.

Now, I don't think Marines are any more heroic than Soldiers .With a larger slice of the pie, I wonder why more Soldiers havn't been awarded DSCs?
And why only 1 to someone under the rank of SSgt? A PFC in the 172d Striker Bde

Links to Full Text Citations for Navy Cross, Distinguished Service Cross, Air Force Cross


When it comes down to it, people will always complain about the awards system. You cannot please everyone.

Officer of Engineers

I really don't know what to make of the Bronze Star. LCol Strogan (now full Vol) and Major Borland, both 3 PPCLI, received it from the US. Though a great honour and greatly appreciated, should it have been presented to BG Staff?

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Chimo

KBAR-04

I have one but it was only awarded for merit. In the US it is the technical equivelent of the peacetime Meritorious Service Medal or DMSM. Much higher significance for awards to foreign troops in my opinion.

Officer of Engineers

Welcome, Major.