omon

lol, i had that craze, many moons ago, while my 3\4 of the family were in army, navy, and could get me any (almost) badge i wanted, but it wasn,t fun, ride a bike for an hour to a base and get some little things from soldgers was much more intertaining, even if i had many of the same ones at home.
the chase was better than the catch.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

Bad Karma

- My favorite was given to me by a friend who who swam to Finland and eventually moved to Texas. It had a red background with КГБ. I think he was originally from Odessa as well.

Firral

It nevertheless is impossible, even in 90th years. Not one admiral in Russia has no so much authority. You represent how many the organizations inspect fleet?
These organizations do not submit to the Navy (for example FSB, an economic department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs). This transaction was probably only with the consent of the government. Otherwise it is simple either a fabrication, or the figurehead. Especially I at all do not wish to speak about rockets. In the Hollywood films, nuclear warheads lay in wooden boxes, and are protected by any awful soldier with АК-47. The opinion in the West is forged on the basis of these films. In a reality I think easier to steal a nuclear warhead in the USA when it again will forget to dismantle and will transport again on other end of the country.

__________________

Firral

My friend, you are not completely right:

First: the most part of the Soviet weapon has been sold by the former countries of the Warsaw Contract and former republics USSR. For example Mig-29 have been bought from the former GDR, Mig-17 was on sale Ukraine, etc.

Secondly: At Iran it is so much weapon from the USSR, how many the western and Chinese weapon.

Artillery:
BM-21 Grad - 64 units
M101 - 700 units
M107 - 200 units
9M133 Konkurs - 130 units
Tow-1 - 100 units

Armoured cars:
M113 - 300 units
BТР-152 - 320 units (Possibly Chinese)
BTR-60 - 300 units
BMP--1/2 - 500 units
FV101 Scorpion - 150 units
Ferret Mk 1/1 - 20 units
Fox - 20 units
EE-9 CASCAVEL - 40 units

Tanks
Chieftain - 300 units
M48 - 100 units
M60A1 - 50 units
Type 59 - 220 units
Type 69 - 200 units
Т-55 - 110 units
Т-62 - 200 units
Т-72 - 250 units

Similar you again listen to the government. You have armed Iran also as have armed Talibs. Now you speak that it was made by us!
That we to it have sold the only thing recently, it is air defence Tor-M1 (about 30 units). But this defensive weapon which cannot be used for an attack.

Firral

ERA does not defend from under-calibre shells.

I took data for a distance of 2000 meters.

Too I can tell about western bravado and high applications. Do not forget, the weapon is the market and greater money. The more advertising for itself and anti-advertisings for the competitor, the better. Let's lean on the facts. Whether there is at you an example of test M1A1 against modern to it of the Soviet shells? I think that such tests were never conducted somewhere. As a rule you had already out-of-date shells. Only do not cite as an example Iraq from it 3BM22 manufacture of 1976.

We already had dispute on it. Give examples and the facts! And that it, resembles on a bet a moslem and catholic - " Whose god is better ".

I have told in the beginning that " since times of Mongols ". As to Mongols Russia paid in it tribute riches and gold in current of 300 years, but it was not their board (in full sense though they and rendered huge influence on princes). In territory of Russian princedoms there was no constant mongolo-tatar army.
Association of Russian princedoms around of Moscow has created favorable conditions for full liquidation of dependence on Tatars. Grand duke the Moscow Ivan III in 1476 has refused to pay tribute to khan. After a unsuccessful campaign of khan of Big Horde Ahmata and so-called « Standings on Ugre » in 1480 the mongolo-tatar yoke has been completely liquidated. And in 1552-56 Grand duke Moscow Ivan IV Groznym has attached Kazan and Astrakhan khan territory to Moscow.

As to WW1 and Poland in 1920, I in general have not understood you. Unless German armies were in Russia? If you have in view of Civil war and intervention of 1920th years this comparison is absolutely not correct as here there was no "aggressive" war, and there was a civil war with participation of the western countries.

I shall partially agree with you. However Republican Guards were elite subdivisions, but they practically in any way have not shown themselves. Your satellites and a communications system did not give them any chances. Your air superiority brought to nothing all of them efforts.
However it you could not use all also, at war from the USSR. Satellites are the purpose number one for Mig-31, by your plane powerful air defence would resist, to your tanks - modern tanks and anti-tank missiles. These two wars not probably to compare.

Blademaster

zraver,

it doesn't really matter because the Iraqi Army nevery had the institutional knowledge and experience in the art of combat operations. Take a look at Afghanistan War. The Soviet conquered it in less than two weeks. They build their own roads. Their logistic planning was unprecedented. The Iraqi Army was nothing like that. I can tell you that if the Red Army was there, they wouldn't stop at Kuwait, they would have gone a lot further and deeper into Saudi Arabia. You have to remember that the Soviet generals recognize their weaknesses and strengths so they maximise their strengths and minimize their weaknesses, so you will be seeing an entire different scenario in the Gulf War if the Red Army was there. They would have not made the same deployments that the Iraqi Army did or make the same geopolitical considerations that Saddam Hussein or his generals did.

The best summation about the quality and state of the Iraqi Army is best quoted by a very famous and highly respected general, Colin Powell, "It doesn't matter whether they have Abrams tanks and the latest technology and we have old equipment such as Patton tanks and obsolete technology, we would have beaten them." I haven't really quoted it exactly but you get the idea.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Bad Karma

- I'm not talking about Arms sales, and most certainly our country is not innocent if not more guilty when it comes to making sales. I was actually referring to Russia selling off their existing equipment.

You will probably not find such sales on an internet search.

Bad Karma

p.s. I was not trying place blame for arming other countries...I was making a point that country forces do not have the strength they once had.

There are far too many variables to consider in this scenario, and really the best way to settle this would be for you to come to my house and we would finish a large bottle of vodka before sunrise. The last man standing wins. I could also introduce you to Tequila.

omon

GANGSTERS INCORPORATED - LUDWIG 'TARZAN' FAINBERG

One of the most celebrated intersections of Russian and Colombian criminal interests also concerned a submarine. In 1997, Ludwig Fainberg, the Russian owner of a Miami strip club, was indicted for trying to negotiate the purchase of a Soviet-era Russian submarine and eight Mi-8 military helicopters on behalf of Colombian drug barons. According to an assistant United States attorney in Miami who developed the case, the submarine was going to travel to a point off the coast of the United States. Then drugs, packed into capsules attached to buoys, would be fired through the submarine's torpedo tubes and float at sea until speedboats made the pickup. Fainberg, who went by the nickname Tarzan, eventually pleaded guilty to racketeering.
The Submarine Next Door

there were handmade subs captured, that were used by drug dealers.

i did make a mistake it wasn,t fsb, but fbi, dea that busted him, sorry for confusion.

zraver

I don't believe the numbers, a bore riding sabot loses too much energy to have that type of performance at 2 klicks. Those 7-9 big fins 125mm in diameter are not designed for long range.


Too I can tell about western bravado and high applications. Do not forget, the weapon is the market and greater money. The more advertising for itself and anti-advertisings for the competitor, the better. Let's lean on the facts. Whether there is at you an example of test M1A1 against modern to it of the Soviet shells? I think that such tests were never conducted somewhere. As a rule you had already out-of-date shells. Only do not cite as an example Iraq from it 3BM22 manufacture of 1976.[/quote]

1- the US doesn't sell the M829 series so there is no market or need for advertising bravado.

2- heavy ERA does indeed defend vs sabots by inducing sheer effect.


1983, 1980-88 and 1991 Israeli, Iranian and USMC M-60 Pattons, Centurions, and upgunned M-48's use the aging 105mm to defeat Syrian and Iraqi T-72's.

1973 Soviet Air defense systems with Soviet technicians manning them fail to do more than attrit the IAF in Syria. They do slightly better in Egypt but once Israel is reequipped with modern ECM the system breaks down. The post 1973 war of attrition between the IAF and Syria goes even worse for the Syrians.

1967, Soviet pilots get smoked over Egypt by the IAF.

The big lie, Soviet claims in the Korean War. Even if the Soviet Union's claims are real then Soviet pilots are the only ones to shoot down a Sabre, not one Chinese or Korean pilot managed a kill nor did any AAA. Thats based on USAF admitted losses. However since the Soviets did not face AAA themselves if you credit the USAF with the Soviets admitted losses the USAF smoked the VVS 2-1.



More importantly where has Soviet equipment performed as advertised?



quote]As to WW1 and Poland in 1920, I in general have not understood you. Unless German armies were in Russia? If you have in view of Civil war and intervention of 1920th years this comparison is absolutely not correct as here there was no "aggressive" war, and there was a civil war with participation of the western countries.[/quote]

In WW1 Russia vice Soviets ceeded Bearus, Ukraine, Baltic states, Poland and Finland to Germany. They ceeded even more land to the Ottomans and Central powers. As a result 1/2 the population, 1/2 the industry, and 90% of the coal was lost.

In 1919-21 Soviet Polish war saw a Soviet offnesive smashed at he gates of Warsw followed by the Polish advance into Russia. The Soviets sued for peace and the treaty of Riga decided the borders, basically where the Polish cavalry stood, they stayed.


I shall partially agree with you. However Republican Guards were elite subdivisions, but they practically in any way have not shown themselves. Your satellites and a communications system did not give them any chances. Your air superiority brought to nothing all of them efforts. [/quote]

70% of all AFV losses in Desert storm were to direct fire

However it you could not use all also, at war from the USSR. Satellites are the purpose number one for Mig-31,[/quote]

No, the Mig 31 was an anti-cruise missile and B-1b interceptor, it also had a role to try and take out hi-val planes but has never had an asat missile.

The same systems that never stopped a single enemy airforce. SAM's attrit they do not win.

Soviet tank and anti-tank weaponry was not able to penetrate the fron of a NATO MBT after the mid 1980's.

Bad Karma

- Sorry for replying to this earlier. I had not seen it. Battlefield definitions are very important. There is a big difference between "destroyed" and "disabled"

zraver

VBIED can destroy anything. The Abrams is generally immune to most IED's but when you have multiple 152mm artillery shells going off under a tank its game over. The VBIED's are hard to deploy however becuase they take so long. It is a bigger pay off for the insurgetns to use car bombs if they are going to use that much explosive. A car bomb wont get the un-exposed crew members like a VBIED will but it has a much wider blast radius for shrapnel.

Shek

Z,
A Vehicle Borne IED (VBIED) is a car bomb. I think you are referring to large IEDs that are buried as VBIEDs?

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Shek

Bad Karma,

Just off the top of my head, there have been numerous Abrams that have been destroyed, i.e., not going back to depot for refit, but simply scrapped due to IEDs. Granted, it's taken huge amounts of explosives buried and detonated at the right time, but it's happened nonetheless.

The number of Abrams disabled by IEDs and requiring depot level (not unit or DS) repair is in the hundreds.

zraver

I was referring to very big IED.