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About LinkBacksUcar,
You're a superb resource at WAB. Flat-out.
Thanks for participating.
Very enlightening in deed. So, Captain, are Turk modernization efforts just basically follow the leader? ie, we'll get whatever the Americans/British/French are getting?
Do you have visionaries who can picture the battlefield 15-20 years from now and get the stuff you need?
Chimo
Ucar,
You're a superb resource at WAB. Flat-out.
Thanks for participating.
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
I'd say Germany has the best. Haven't read the entire thread, so excuse me if someone has "proven" that to be wrong.
Oh, and the British military is far from a joke.
Last edited by Shuttlecat; 26 Sep 07, at 00:07.
SirOriginally Posted by Officer of Engineers
Turkish arms procurement program and decision making is structured around the Turkish General Staff, Undersecretariat of Defence Industries, and Ministry of National Defence.
Turkish General Staff is responsible for preparing the groundwork, and conducting the research for procurement and modernization requirements. They usually decide on the needs of the Armed Forces, and contact the Ministry of National Defence. The Ministry then authorises its Undersecretariat to issue a RfP paper based on the information the TGS has supplied to the Ministry. Following the completion of procedural steps, a number of systems are invited for system testing and demonstration. Following the completion of tests the final winner is declared and the agreements are signed.
The TGS representatives are the authority tasked with evaluating system effectiveness, and interprating test results. Thus, the final decision is usually is not the most combat effective system proposed to TAF. The last decision to purchase the T-129 attack helicopter has caused significant contraversy among military personnel. The primary critisms were focused on the facts that the systems has not been proven in combat, has less combat load capability when compared to its rivals, and has only been used by the Italian Armed Forces although it has been flying since 2000. In the first competition the AH-1Z had won, but the final decision was cancelled over disagreement on production and offset agreements. T-129 entered the first competition, but was discarded in favor of the AH-1Z. I nte second round, it came out as the winner.
Thera are more stories to tell, but I am unable to source them for WA members to read, so I will pass them by for the time being.
TGS has a working group of high ranking officials who work on a joint basis with the Undersecretariat to determine future requirements and necessities. The decisions to implement the Turkish TAFICS system, integration of UAVs, Tanker Aircraft, AWACS systems were all borne from the studies of this group. Naturally, a heavy US/NATO influence is felt in arms procurement programs, and most of the common projects are also accepted by Turkey as well.
Last edited by Ucar; 26 Sep 07, at 09:23. Reason: Typo
Captain,
Do continue your fascinating narration of the workings of the Turk Army. If you have stories to tell, I really don't mind sipping a scotch while reading them. Also, please if you have some funny stories, do share in the Field Mess thread Stories. There are bound to be a few that you hurt your ribs laughing.
Chimo
Hello everybody!
I read that Poland has 3 Mech and 1 Armored Divisions, but I haven´t found a more precise description on this formations.
Somebody has information regarding this?
Thanks
uh I might be wrong
European military strength is misleading, because European military forces do not have the staying power to fight a long term large scale modern war. European countries also do not have the political will to fight for any reason, and most Europeans would be glad to see all the armed forces in Europe disbanded and banned. Today is not the 1930's, Europe today is starting to succumb to it's disease of Socialism and the decline of European military power is just another symptom of this disease. A what if scenario of European powers fighting each other is not a realistic scenario. A more plausible scenario is massive internal strife in France, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands erupting into limited civil war with the central governments in these countries struggling to maintain power in the face of Muslim terrorism, crime, Anarchist violence, and this combined with the threat of environmental disaster (rising sea levels, failure of crops, shortage of Fresh water) coupled with economic disaster (increasing food costs, rising unemployment, loss of seaports) which would alienate European civilian populations from they're governments, making them more susceptible to extremism.
Last edited by JMH; 25 Oct 07, at 03:05.
I'd go to this site before hitting up Wiki.
GlobalSecurity.org - Reliable Security Information
I mean go see what Wiki has to say, but you need to always take it with a grain of salt.
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
From a non professional point of view, and based on my limited knowledge, I would put my vote on the UK or Germany, with the UK just ahead because of the wealth of experience Germany has missed out on.
The UK proved with operation like the Falklands, that we can operate away from home, under our own power. And whilst I agree there was alot of luck involved, I cant think on another nation that has had this sort of fight post WW2.
Also the UK has seen alot of action, and has developed many skills that are key to the current and near future conflicts we will be fighting (I refer here to Urban combat/patrol skills learned through our stay in Ireland)
When the UK gets its new carriers up and running I think they will have the best all round package of any European military.
Varsity despite as you say your limited knowledge I would tend to agree. The UK generally speaking tends to show itself as the stronger either because it is or because it is involved on a large scale in more operations than its close rivals and therefore can demonstrate more effectively its capacity.
The Falklands while a success as I'm aware showed some glaring holes in the MOD's thinking at the time and I can only hope that the RN after all it has done for the UK are never again treated as the lesser of the 3 departments (one can only hope from over here)
JMH
Is this the begining of a self righteous opinionated utterly bias and unsupported rant because if so thats a gem of an opener!most Europeans would be glad to see all the armed forces in Europe disbanded and banned.
Followed swiftly by this interesting statement which given its on the heels of a reference to 1930's Europe might lead some of us to wonder exactly where this is all going (if anywhere).
Europe today is starting to succumb to it's disease of Socialism and the decline of European military power is just another symptom of this disease.Why is it more plausible, your opinion is yours and your welcome to it (as all are, well except that guy over thereA more plausible scenario is massive internal strife in France, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands erupting into limited civil war with the central governments in these countries struggling to maintain power in the face of Muslim terrorism, crime, Anarchist violence, and this combined with the threat of environmental disaster (rising sea levels, failure of crops, shortage of Fresh water) coupled with economic disaster (increasing food costs, rising unemployment, loss of seaports) which would alienate European civilian populations from they're governments, making them more susceptible to extremism.) but your concocting a scenario from god only knows what and throwing it out there along with some doom and gloom stuff about rising sea levels and so on. Also Muslim terrorism is a threat to be sure but not to the level you are suggesting. To be honest I seen a more plausible possibility watching V for Vendetta (by the way a damn good movie) than what you have presented
D
they have us surrounded, the poor bastards.
Ucar,
I have not as yet read all of what you posted but judging by the response you have put in some most interesting information. kudos from my rain ridden corner and I will read shortly.
they have us surrounded, the poor bastards.
I think a lot of people overlook Spain, in terms of military power, largely because they weren't very involved in the World Wars.
They have a big army, and a lot of rapid deployment troops. They have a lot of tanks, lots of armoured carriers, but a deficit in IFV's.
Most of their airforce, except for their F-18's are old, but that's not much different than the rest of Europe either. Spain is planning to modernize their air force with the Eurofighter.
The Spanish navy is huge! They have a carrier group, subs, and a division of marines. They're not a pushover and they continue to modernize.
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
The Spanish still haven't retired some of the AMX30s, never mind M60s. Their Leo 2 arsenal is pretty large (430 or so iirc).
Varsity despite as you say your limited knowledge I would tend to agree. The UK generally speaking tends to show itself as the stronger either because it is or because it is involved on a large scale in more operations than its close rivals and therefore can demonstrate more effectively its capacity.
The Falklands while a success as I'm aware showed some glaring holes in the MOD's thinking at the time and I can only hope that the RN after all it has done for the UK are never again treated as the lesser of the 3 departments (one can only hope from over here
JMH
Is this the begining of a self righteous opinionated utterly bias and unsupported rant because if so thats a gem of an opener!
Followed swiftly by this interesting statement which given its on the heels of a reference to 1930's Europe might lead some of us to wonder exactly where this is all going (if anywhere).
Why is it more plausible, your opinion is yours and your welcome to it (as all are, well except that guy over there
D
Many people are offended by the truth and you are no exception.
Apparently the British government takes the threat of rising sea levels more seriously than you do. If you look at the Thames River in London you would see large gates built across it, which can be closed when necessary, when London is threatened by high tides due to the increasing sea levels.
The last major climatic shift in Europe was devastating and one result was large numbers of starving peasants, who formed revolutionary groups and attacked governments in Western Europe. Considering that most Europeans are currently dependant on government welfare they would probably become upset if this welfare support was suddenly reduced or eliminated. This kind of internal strife is much more likely than a large scale continental war between medium European powers.
Most Europeans simply will not accept the fact that Muslim Terrorists would like to kill them all and if Muslim Terrorists succeed in detonating a Nuclear or radiological device in Europe, Europeans would most likely blame the USA and they're own governments for the attack rather than unite together to fight the Muslim Terror threat.
Also, Socialists and Muslim terrorists have a few things in common:
-Hatred of Jews
-Hatred of Christianity
-Hatred of Capitalism
Since France is the birthplace of Socialism, the more extreme socialists that reside in Europe (and American Universities), would be greatly heartened to see Muslim Terrorists succeed, which is why they whine so loudly about the rights of detained Muslim Terrorists. Yet these Socialists will not lift a finger to help any Christians who are under attack from Muslim extremists.
Also, it is very unlikely that Europe’s Socialist Governments would wage war against each other; the more likely scenario is civil strife and repression within Europe rather than a general war between European nations. Consequently, counting apposing numbers of military units, troop numbers and military hardware is pointless because European countries never intend to actually fight any major wars. If a major war begins, Europe will look to the USA for it’s security rather than fight and attempt to win on its own.
Last edited by JMH; 28 Oct 07, at 05:20.
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