Thread: Who has the strongest military in Europe?

What? I wrote tours in Turkey, not hours. Years and Years. In fact I was just at a course at your PfP program

I have misread your post as hours. I offer my apologies, and previous comments based on false reading.

There are few armed forces and non of its size that can calim to be worse tested.

On your other points:

The failure allow use of the US bases and the blocking of the northern front was not at as you suggest. It had to do with TGS's (Turkish General Staff) fears over the Kurds gaining more independence in northern Iraq.

May I remind you here that the proposal to allow the use of Turkish Bases and deploy troops in Norther Iraq -if necessary- alongside with US troops was accepted by the majority of the represantatives in the Turkish Grand National Assembly. However, the majority was not enough and many members of the anti-TGS ruling party AKP refused to vote "Aye". The final outcome was not only TGS's making, but a condition of domestic politics that coincided with TGS preferences.

In the years of fighting against the PKK the the PKK casualties include as majority large numbers of civilians killed and defined as terrorists post mortem. IN CI school we used to say the definition of a PKK fighter was any civilian killed.

Funny, when I was in the Staff School it was pounded in our heads to differentiate between unarmed civilians and armed terrorists. In all military operations collatteral damage is inevitable. Can you please provide some sources where the Turkish Armed Forces has intentionally taken the lives of unarmed civilians and reclassified them as terrorists afterwards.

The citation of Cyrpus as operation is notably thin. The correlation of fource would be equivalent to our action on Grenada: if Grenada were even closer to the US, if Grenada were in the of a government breakdown, and if the Grenada forces were busy fighting each other when we arrived.

For people who don't know the geographic distance the first elements of the invasion came in Hueys from the mainland. That is the short distances we are talking about.

My grandmother and her bridge club could have taken Cyprus. Forces landed in the north, took the main port with nothing but a few policemn shooting back. The goverment of Greece, which might have been able to bolster the Cypriots was already in severe turmopil and fell a few days later, during a truce the TAF then moved in a few more miles and declared vicory.

I can tell you all kinds of things aobut Operation Atilla my friend.

The citation of Cyprus was only included as an example of large scale troop action and wartiem experience.

The first elements were paratroopers who were dropped on the island. Once their landing zone was secured the Commando Forces were airlifted with Hueys, followed by elements of the Marine Infantry Brigade who landed on Beach Pladini. The Paratroopers and the Amphibious Forces engaged the Greek Cypriot National Guard units by daybreak. Please refer to some sources that detail the fighting especially on Pladini Beach area where Amphibious Forces were engaged by HMG and 7 T-34s. Please bear in mind that the troops were armed only with 57 mm Recoilless Rifles and Cobra missiles both of which were ineffective against the T-34.

The rest of the troops were brought to the island with Hueys. However, they were not the leading wave. I hope your grandmother and her bridge club can do better than 500+ soldiers who lost their lives in Atilla 1 and 2 operations.

You realize most of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF) casualties were friendly fire? The most spectacular engagements were Blue on Blue as the Turkish airforce relentlessly attacked the Turkish Navy.

When I was first stationed stationed in Turkey I had to sadly deal with young officers who had been told the Kocatepe, Adatepe, and Tinaztepe had been attacked by Greek submarines. In point of fact, as is known now, the a large strike package of Turkish of Supersabers and Starfighers attacked those ships, sinking the Kocatepe and heavily damaging the other destroyers. (Although the Turkish Navy did manage thee shoot downs of a number of Turkish Air Forces 104's.)

Friendly fire is a phenomenon which can not be evaded even in modern times. You will remember similar instances in both Gulf Wars despite the use of so much technology.

Close Air support firm Turkey was attacking Turkish infantry as were naval batteries!

Very questionable as most Greek Cypriot positions were silenced by TuAF aircraft.

During the truce the Turkish forces we able to being reinforced because this meant they were not being attacked by their principle opposition their own Air force.

There was no truce, but a ceasefire. TuAF participated in the second phase of Operation Atilla as well.

I reiterate that externally deployable forces of Turkey are nearly nil. If you follow procurement you see that the major procurements programs have been gutted by the current government. The Army is a unwieldy conscript mess.

I have given a rough calculation of personnel capabilities of externally deployable forces. The government has authorized the F-35 procurement, F-16 procurement, Tank upgrade, Tank procurement, Corvette procurement, SPA procurement, attack helicopter procurement etc... programs. Perhaps they are among the top spending governments in the last 15 years.

The Army is composed primarily of conscripts. However, the primary fighting units are regularly trained and rotated in the South East combat zone. Most of the officer force has on hands combat experience against PKK. Moreover, the rate of friendly fire has decreased dramatically following the completion of Land-Air Management and Fire Control entegration via intra-force training, utilization of FACs, and the TasMus project.

I love Turkey. I have many Turkish friends and in fact Turkish relatives! But I submit the TAF is not a respected force. Their entire orientation is and has been internal. Internal involvement in politics, internal conflict. They haven't had a single success against any external force.

You are very right ot point out that the primary orientation and security establishment of TAF is domestic. That is the case for many armed forces. However, orientation and capabilities should not be confused. Turkish Armed Forces are not composed of supermen despite what many of my countrymen will say. However, it is highly competant and efficient in mountain and irregular warfare. Moreover, it has proven itself to be able to air lift, deploy and operate Corps sized forces up to ranges of 200+km. You may refer to the operations in Norther Iraq in 1993, and 1994 for further details.

I am definetly not arguing that TAF is the best of this or that. However, it is capable of deploying significant forces and supporting the in force projection operations for considerable periods of time. It is experienced in fighting against serious armed threats, and is learning from its past mistakes
to operate with increasing efficiency. The introduction of full time professional Commando Brigades is currently the most important step towards operations efficiency increse.

Itzaak,

Have you checked in at the first forum, "Member Introductions"? I'd sure like to know more about you, if you don't mind. Further, a few of the veterans here are a tad "tetchy" about those who don't take the time and manners to introduce themselves properly.

Thanks. I look forward to learning more about yourself.

Originally Posted by Ucar

The introduction of full time professional Commando Brigades is currently the most important step towards operations efficiency increse.

Commando brigades? I've had thought NATO countries have moved away from such large specialist formations. Would you be so kind as to provide a mission statement and TOE, Captain?

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Commando brigades? I've had thought NATO countries have moved away from such large specialist formations. Would you be so kind as to provide a mission statement and TOE, Captain?

As far as I understand, Turkish Commando brigades are not analogous to SOF but more to Paratroopers of NATO standard.

As far as I understand, Turkish Commando brigades are not analogous to SOF but more to Paratroopers of NATO standard.

Right on point. In fact Turkish Commandos are not required to be jump qualified. That is an optional course which can be attended by officers of the Corps. Commandos are similar to US Army Rangers and they are utilized as specialized/mountain infantry.

Commando brigades? I've had thought NATO countries have moved away from such large specialist formations. Would you be so kind as to provide a mission statement and TOE, Captain?

Turkish Armed Forces has been using Commando Brigades to a great extent with favorable effectiveness, and last month a decision to convert all commando Brigades to professional units was declared. So, despite most NATO members decisions, TAF is going ahead to strengthen this branch of land forces.

To elaborate further on these units, currently there are 5 Commando Brigades in Land Forces and 1 Commando Brigades under the Gendarmarie Command. Moreover, there are 3 Commando Regiments, and 2 Gendarmarie Commando Regiments. Furthermore, the Air Force Command and the Naval Command also have 1 Commando Brigade each.

The official mission statements, and the TOE are not provided to the general public. To summarize:

"Using the skills acquired by physical and theoretical training; to conduct a detailed reconnaisance of the target, and following situational analysis
to destroy it completely in all weather and natural conditions even in cases when supply and reinforcement is not possible. To use,train and implement all possible methods and means to complete assigned missions with utmost dedication and efficiency.

For a standart Infantry Commando Brigade the TOE would be :

Brigade HQ
5 Commando Battalions
1 Artillery Battalion
1 Air Defence Batallion
1 Heavy Weapons and Support Battalion
1 Reconnaisance Company
1 Engineer Company
1 Communications Company
1 Chemical Defence Company (establishment only)
1 Logistics Support Company
1 Maintenance and Workshop Company
1 Medical and Sanitary Company

"Brigade HQ
5 Commando Battalions
1 Artillery Battalion
1 Air Defence Batallion
1 Heavy Weapons and Support Battalion
1 Reconnaisance Company
1 Engineer Company
1 Communications Company
1 Chemical Defence Company (establishment only)
1 Logistics Support Company
1 Maintenance and Workshop Company
1 Medical and Sanitary Company"

Ucar,

Your brigade H.Q.s must be VERY robustly manned and equipped. Most organizations generally subscribe to a subordinate span of control approximating three to five units.

Separate brigades and (at least for the U.S. Army) Armored Cav Regts. have long faced this problem, imposed by the need to conduct and sustain autonomous operations. The employment of eight battalions , four separate combat/combat support companies and three combat service-support companies, though, appears to be a monstrous burden for a separate brigade staff.

Unless it's a damn big staff!)

Usually the Brigade HQ is composed of the Brigadier General and his assorted staff for a total of app.100 men; roughly a company.

Naturally, this is a shortened TOE. The expanded version would show a Battalion HQ company for each Battalion, but since I have to type it and can not copy & paste it I kept it short....

Very much appreciated, Captain. I've noticed during Yugoslavia that the Turks prefer Regimental Groups as opposed to Battle Groups. Rangers and the likes prefer Company Groups/Combat Teams. Without violating any OPSEC rules, could you give me a feel as to what do you have to master in order to go up in rank? IE, as a Captain, do you need time as a Company Group DCO before getting your Majors or just being the Company 2IC would be enough?

Sir

Advancing in rank in a steady and certain manner in the TAF depends on one constant and two variables.

The Constant : An officer needs to successfully complete and qualify for the General Staff eligibility examination. After an officer graduates from the Military College with the rank of 2nd Lt., following a min. of 6 years of service the officer is eligible to apply for the examination. Success on the first try usually grants a sure path to becoming a General.

Variables : To explain the variables, I need to elaborate on TAF official mission statement, and the laws governing its existence. TAF mission statement is shortly "To protect and preserve the unseperable unity of The State of Turkish Republic and its people from all domestic and foreign threats"

Thus, the officer corps is heavily doctrinated in Secularism, Kemalism, and Statism.

Variable 1: Political Ties in Military

To advance beyond Brigadier General (which is a step into intervention in political life) an officer needs strong ties inside the military with not even the slightest of Islamist tendencies. The officer corps expels those members even upto and including full colonels.

Variable 2 : Past Experience

This is a more direct answer to your question Sir. To go "high" an officer needs to be from the Land Forces, preferably from the Tank, Artillery or Infantry arm. Other services and branches can go only to command respective brancehs of the armed forces, with the slot of Chief of General Staff being reserved for members of the Land Forces.

Serving in foreign missions, and representing armed forces abroad, especially in missions to the UN or USA are prerequisites of attaining high rank, aside from qualification. Usually, officers who serve in the field, especially those whose units incure losses against the terrorist organization PKK are "combed" before attaining substantially higher ranks. There is an insiders joke where we used to say "If you want wings, do not climb the mountains". I believe you get the overall idea.

I am extremely sorry to say that the TGS is highly political, and doctrinated, and closed to evolutionary and flexible methods of thinking.

Thank you Ucar for that illuminating insight.